Josh 0:00

But I like the idea of a tree, especially a fruit tree, because then you can enjoy me for years to come, you know.

Pamela 0:06

Eeee. 

Josh 0:12

I'm juicy.

Pamela 0:12

You're going to be a peach tree?

Pamela 0:14

Yes. God, yes. Uh-huh. You're listening to Premeditated Opinions, because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway. I'm Pamela.

Josh 0:33

And I'm Josh, and we are just two people who somehow share a brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones.

Pamela 0:40

Each week, we unpack the chaos from politics and religion to petty internet fights and existential dread, like it's our unpaid job.

Josh 0:49

We are not experts. We are just way too confident. So with all that being said, let's get started. So now that our children have resumed school, which thank God, because mine were slowly killing each other, which was ultimately going to kill me. But now that we have all this time on our hands that our kids are back in school, what are some things you're doing to consume that time?

Pamela 1:15

Thinking about death.

Josh 1:16

That's... Perfect. What is interesting to you about death in this moment?

Pamela 1:25

Wasn't there like a movie quote that was like that? Oh, Barbie.

Josh 1:32

Oh, yeah.

Pamela 1:34

Does anyone else have thoughts of death? Well, actually, yes. Okay, so I was scrolling something. I don't know. I think it was Instagram. Instagram. And I came across this really clever ad, and I'm a sucker for clever ads. Like, if your ad is, like, or your product is, like, funny or clever or whatever, like, nine times out of ten, it will be in my house. So there was one, and it said– it was a journal, like a workbook, and it said– Sorry, it's your problem now. I'm dead. And basically, it's a workbook of... Like your end of life planning.

Josh 2:24

Okay. I don't hate it.

Pamela 2:25

Yeah. And so I was like, you go through and you put your final wishes, your investment accounts, your bank accounts, your passwords, like all this information. So basically, you know.

Josh 2:38

So it could be somebody else's problem once you're dead.

Pamela 2:41

At your demise. Right.

Josh 2:44

Right.

Pamela 2:44

Someone knows what to do. And so I got one for myself and my husband.

Josh 2:49

Yeah.

Pamela 2:51

I haven't received them yet, but I'm oddly excited. Like, it's a package I'm waiting for.

Josh 2:57

Right. This is the most millennial estate planning ever. Like, we can't afford to pay attorneys to do it. So we're just getting Amazon workbooks. Just writing stuff down.

Pamela 3:14

So it's something, funny enough, Josh and I have always talked about it and we've just never done it.

Josh 3:14

Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Pamela 3:37

And I'm like, I always think like we could die tomorrow, we could die on a flight, we could, you know, we could consume our thoughts of death. But we've never done anything. And and even when I was younger and I was really sick and in and out of the hospital, every time I would go in, 'Do you have a living will? Do you have a living will?' Like, no. Yeah, I knocked on death's door, but no, I don't have a living will. And I still don't. And we've talked about what we want to do, but I'm still not sure that Josh would fulfill my wishes the way that I want them fulfilled. I mean, granted, I really shouldn't care because I'm dead.

Josh 4:01

You will be dead. Yeah.

Pamela 4:03

But

Josh 4:04

it's really hard to spread ashes on Mars. I'm not sure that's a real thing. reasonable expectation for you to have.

Pamela 4:09

He should just know.

Josh 4:10

Right. I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation. But also... I get it. I get like thinking through this. So, you know, I have gone through seasons where I've traveled a lot for work. I've traveled internationally for work and I've traveled internationally in places that are not terribly safe. And so.

Pamela 4:35

But that's not where you're going to die. You're going to die in some horrible freak accident on a random Tuesday. And you're going to be like, well, that sucked.

Josh 4:45

Right. I do want a story.

Pamela 4:47

I do too.

Josh 4:48

I would love for my demise to be just a hell of a tale. He was schlepping his cameras through the Brazilian Amazon forest.

Pamela 4:57

I want someone to write a podcast about my death.

Josh 5:00

I want a documentary. I want a good enough death for a documentary.

Pamela 5:04

Wait, are we? Let's not manifest a serial killer situation here or a murder.

Josh 5:12

Not yet, anyway. Give me another 30 years or so.

Pamela 5:15

Let me get through my kid's graduation.

Josh 5:17

Yeah, minimum. Having a grandkid could be cool.

Pamela 5:20

Yeah,

Josh 5:20

Maybe, but at the same time, whatever. I'm here for it. No, I think that's brilliant. And honestly, so, like... Not to be actually a little bit morbid about it, but my dad is 66. He turned 67 in November. He's a single man now. And I actually very recently had a conversation with him where I was like, hey, I don't want this to happen. He's in great health. I have no reason to believe there's anything going on. But I actually had a conversation with him recently where I was like, I'm not asking you for details. I'm not asking you for anything you're not ready to divulge. Would you tell me where to look for whatever I will need to find?

Pamela 6:02

Yep.

Josh 6:03

Should the day come where you're not here anymore? And he actually responded very positively. It turned into a great conversation. And, you know, he does have his ducks in a row, which doesn't surprise me at all. And, you know, at the same time, I've had other family members pass in the fairly recent past where– They didn't have anything done, and I was like, oh, man, this is a mess. I mean, it just leaves behind such a disaster. So as much as we're poking fun at it, it's kind of brilliant. And I don't know all the estate law or anything like that, but I know enough to know that most things like that will actually hold water from a legal standpoint if it's done in a responsible way. You don't have to actually have, if I'm understanding this correctly, and if you're an attorney listening, please correct me, but if I'm understanding it correctly you can basically draw up your own will as long as it meets some certain criteria and as long as I think you have to have it notarized, and you have to sign it and all this stuff but it's not like you have to go through an estate attorney for all of this stuff. So who knows? Maybe Amazon is saving the day. I think it's kind of brilliant. So

Pamela 7:18

Yeah.

Josh 7:20

Do you want your ashes spread somewhere weird? Is that what you're worried about?

Pamela 7:23

No. I Okay. Listen, I'm a millennial, so of course I don't want a traditional something or other. Josh is pretty much like, just throw me in the pizza oven and be done. And I'm like, okay. I don't know. I'm not super... There's two things. Well, actually, just one thing. If I'm going to be buried... Which I don't care if you bury my ashes or whatever. There is a cemetery back home that I am drawn to. Oh, that sounds weird. But it's always been a place. Every time I've driven by, I'm like, that's where I would want to be.

Josh 8:09

Sure.

Pamela 8:10

But then there's also part of me that got really into the, oh, I can't remember what it's called now. This is a great podcast because I can't actually really remember anything I'm trying to talk about

Josh 8:23

Are you talking about like the eco-friendly like the

Pamela 8:26

eco-friendly like so you you become a tree

Josh 8:28

right yeah yeah yeah yeah

Pamela 8:30

and it's weird and gross and I was watching a show there's this new show on Netflix called Leanne somebody was like so you want to be you want to become a tree after you die and they're like yeah like an apple tree and you're like do you do you want people to eat the apples off your tree like that That's kind of weird. I'm like, I don't have to be an apple tree. But I just, I don't know, it's kind of like giving back.

Josh 8:57

Yeah, no, there's some poetry in that. Like, that's a cool approach. I... I could absolutely buy into something like that. To be honest, I haven't given it a tremendous amount of thought as to what happens with me.

Pamela 9:11

I think about all the things that aren't important and none of the things, I don't put any weight into the things that actually are important. So yeah, like becoming a tree.

Josh 9:24

Well, in some ways it's like a relief. It's like, man, this is all be better when I'm a tree. Yeah.

Pamela 9:28

And I've thought about, I'm even onto the extreme of thinking like, you know, I'm an only child. My husband's basically an only child I wanted to have two kids he was a one and done and I was like no I want two because when she gets older and we're gone and she this is her problem now

Josh 9:48

right

Pamela 9:49

yeah I don't want it to be her problem alone sure and I'm not gonna rely on the fact that she's gonna have somebody sure you know but I want her to have a built in

Josh 9:58

yeah

Pamela 9:59

somebody so hence her brother

Josh 10:02

right and

Pamela 10:04

And Josh would always push back on that a little bit because he's like, well, that doesn't guarantee that they're even going to like each other. And I'm like, they will. Like, I think we have to just cultivate that relationship. But I just don't want her to have to make those decisions and kind of face that. Because with us being only children, that means our kids have no aunts, uncles, cousins, like nobody.

Josh 10:29

Well, and whether or not you– Whether or not you see it this way, this kind of thing, this kind of silly notebook, which is a bit tongue-in-cheek and a bit self-aware, and I love all of that, but it's actually a piece of kindness.

Pamela 10:43

Exactly.

Josh 10:45

You are doing your left-behinds a favor by saying, hey, here's a blueprint for how I would want things to go moving on. And in the day and age of investment accounts all being online, bank accounts all being online. Unless someone knows exactly where to look and how to log in to all the financial things that we are tied to, you're never going to find it. You're never going to find it.

Pamela 11:11

This was a nightmare for my mother's parents. So when my grandmother passed away, And I don't know, like a decade later, my grandfather passed away and my mom ended up being executor of the estate. And like, it was a multi-year nightmare for her because for one, she didn't know what to do as executor. Like she was learning all of, about all of these rules and laws and, you know, having to wait for creditors to, to, you know, before any of this stuff could be settled. Right. And it was, and she, same thing. Like, she's finding passwords and, like, finding out about all these accounts and had no clue where all, like, money was just stashed kind of everywhere. Yeah. And it was not fun for her trying to piece all that together in order to finally settle everything. It was several years.

Josh 12:13

Yeah.

Pamela 12:14

Until she could finally be done.

Josh 12:16

Yeah. I mean, that's pretty similar to my dad's situation when his dad my grandpa when he passed it was a disaster of a situation and my grandpa actually had some ducks in a row but he was in his second marriage I'm sorry his third marriage in his third marriage he was um he had not kept his finances separate from his third wife and they met much later in life. Um, and she kind of took him through the ringer, but then there were parts of his estate that my dad and his twin brother were sort of co-executors for and watching them navigate that process and, um, have to just deal with so many fine print legalities and things like that it really made an impression on me of like we're really doing people a kindness when we leave them a plan

Pamela 13:08

oh yeah

Josh 13:08

you know it really is that way and so we actually i like to joke with krista that um her fastest path to being a really wealthy woman would be like putting a hit out on me like if i die she'd be very wealthy um because the one thing i do have is life insurance um and i pay handsomely for it every But I really wanted a situation where if I'm out in the middle of some crazy country and get abducted by somebody and killed or whatever, I wanted to make sure that she was set up and the kids were set up and all of that. And so I have gone that far. I don't really have anything that looks like a living will yet, but I probably should. Well, I definitely should. But it's... I do have a desire to kind of do things the right way and follow things by the book and, and, you know, really prepare. But I don't know. I think I'm going to order one of these. We, okay. So I'm going to order two. Sorry, it's your problem now. I'm dead workbooks. And maybe, maybe we can fill out ours live on the podcast, like not give passwords, but, but like, yeah. So what's in your death book? It's just try. and figure out, like, what do we want to divulge? That would be really funny.

Pamela 14:33

To my daughter, I give my Calvin and Hobbes collection.

Josh 14:37

Yeah.

Pamela 14:38

Yeah.

Josh 14:40

And if she doesn't want it, I'll take it.

Pamela 14:41

Oh, I know. Yeah. I'll write you in there. It's fine.

Josh 14:45

Yeah.

Pamela 14:45

Tis fine.

Josh 14:46

Yeah. I'm fascinated by that, actually. And Krista, God love her. Like, she's so brilliant at so many things, but she really does not like even consuming considering the idea of death?

Pamela 14:59

It's... I mean, and she's not alone.

Josh 15:00

Yeah.

Pamela 15:01

You know, I don't... I think that's also one of the reasons why we haven't done anything is because you just... It's not something you want to think about. It's not comfortable. You know, it's a very uncomfortable topic. It's not fun.

Josh 15:12

Yeah.

Pamela 15:14

And... You know, you were kind of joking earlier. At one point, Josh was definitely worth more to me dead than alive. But it had to be under a very certain set of circumstances in order for me to basically be a millionaire. That's since changed, but the good thing is I'm worthless to him. Dead. Mainly because of my medical history, it is almost impossible for me to get life insurance. The only way I can get it is through my...

Josh 15:46

Right.

Pamela 15:47

And if I don't have an employer.

Josh 15:48

Right.

Pamela 15:49

Um, and even then it's usually like, I think the most I can get is like double my salary.

Josh 15:54

Oh, that's not

Pamela 15:56

and

Josh 15:57

in the life insurance world.

Pamela 15:58

Yeah. Like I want, ideally I would like to leave enough, you know, with having kids and things to, to pay off, you know, everything basically, but the house, um, and even be able to pay down that to where he can, focus on taking care of them. But even then it's like, but right now I've got nothing. Um, and it's, I have gone through the process. I mean, I've even like given blood to try to get policies and stuff and they just won't, they won't approve it. I'm too high. I'm too close to death. Apparently.

Josh 16:39

I mean, of all of my friends, um, You are certainly one that has kind of had some of the closest calls. But do you feel like any of those experiences have put you in a situation where you became more comfortable thinking about those things? Or does it still feel taboo? Does it still feel out of the box?

Pamela 17:01

I think at this point, it's just... the process of it is daunting to me.

Josh 17:09

Sure. A lot of admin. A lot of admin around death.

Pamela 17:13

I've got to find an attorney and I've got to make the appointment and I've got to talk through the things. To me, I'm just like, I don't even want to do that for anything else. So that's why I got the book. Yeah, it's kind of tongue-in-cheek and silly, but at least we have stuff down on paper that you know, heaven forbid, something does happen. I've got at least somewhat of a path or a map to what, what needs to be handled and where things are and, and what their essential wishes are.

Josh 17:48

Yeah. Well, and honestly, like if, when I die, If y'all aren't throwing some kind of huge party with great live music and good drinks, then you don't know me at all.

Pamela 18:02

A celebration of life.

Josh 18:04

If this isn't like... Everyone has to Uber home because they had a little too much and social media feeds are flooded with selfies from my wake.

Pamela 18:16

Selfies with the casket.

Josh 18:18

Yes. Oh my God, yes. Please do that. Dead me will think that's so funny. I will be on board with all of that. I think that's hysterical because it's honest. It's so much more what my personality is and And like, sure, be sad and grieve and do all those things. Like, I'm not trying to cheapen people's experiences. But at the same time, I mean, come on. I'm not interested in people sitting around wallowing and whatever. I want great music. I want great food and drink. There better be barbecue. I want there to be some sort of party in my honor and then go about your things.

Pamela 19:06

Shortly after we moved to Texas, I had an uncle that unexpectedly passed. He was a Grateful Dead fan.

Josh 19:16

Oh, nice.

Pamela 19:19

He believed in Sasquatch.

Josh 19:19

Oh I like him already.

Pamela 19:20

Yeah, and so his service, we were encouraged to wear tie-dye shirts, like Grateful Dead stuff, because that was just who he was. That was his personality, and it was... It was a lot of fun. I mean, it definitely was a tasteful service. But then when we got back to the funeral home, there were all these pictures of his Bigfoot sightings and all these things that he just really enjoyed. So it kind of did take a little bit of the bite out of the situation. And it's, I think, absolutely what he would have... appreciated so yeah i'm the same way like party it up

Josh 20:17

yeah and then make me a tree make yeah just party hard and then i want to be a tree now

Pamela 20:25

yeah

Josh 20:25

yeah it seems like an easy answer to all my problems it's just becoming a tree no i love that that

Pamela 20:33

knowing my luck i'd get dug up by raccoons or something I don't even know how that whole process works. I looked it up like a long time ago, and it looked really weird, but I was like, hmm.

Josh 20:45

So, I mean, my aunt who passed a couple of years ago, I'm sorry, last year, she passed last year. She wanted to be, and I'm sure there's a better term for it, but she wanted to be composted, essentially. And so she was essentially recycling.

Pamela 21:02

You're just gonna rot in your backyard in your compost pile?

Josh 21:07

Well, it was a little more to it than that. But like, honestly, I didn't know much about it. And obviously I still don't. But I know that she went through this whole process after she passed of being prepared to where when she was buried she was buried with organic materials that were going to naturally decompose and allow her body to decompose in a way that would actually be helpful to the earth around it because it turns out when we bury a bunch of like wood caskets full of plastics and things like that we're actually destroying a lot of the the land that we're buried in and so she um she really wanted this to be done and so it was funny because none of us really knew anything about it but i think Almost everyone who attended her service was kind of looking up what this process is and how it all works and stuff. It was really interesting.

Pamela 21:57

I'm going to tell everybody, don't Google it. Don't worry about it. Just know that I'm giving back.

Josh 22:03

Right. Yes. That works. Yeah. But I like the idea of a tree, especially a fruit tree, because then you can enjoy me for years to come. Ya know. I'm juicy.

Pamela 22:18

You're going to be a peach tree?

Josh 22:20

Yes. God, yes. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Pamela 22:24

I think I just want to be a tree. Listen, do not make me a dogwood. I will haunt the hell out of you. I hate those trees, but make me something, I don't know, something nice.

Josh 22:37

Yeah. Where do cottonwoods come from? Is that like a tree all by itself? Those little cottonwood fluffies that you see floating through the air during the spring? Do those come off a cottonwood?

Pamela 22:45

I have no idea.

Josh 22:47

I don't either.

Pamela 22:48

I'm not an arborist.

Josh 22:49

I don't know what arborist is, but those little floaty things, I just know that I'm in for a week of hell when I start seeing those because for some reason I'm really allergic to those.

Pamela 23:02

I don't think we have those in Kentucky.

Josh 23:04

Oh, we have them here. You'll see them in the spring. But anyway, I wasn't sure if that was a dogwood tree or something.

Pamela 23:08

Or maybe we caught something else. I don't know.

Josh 23:09

Yeah, but anyway.

Pamela 23:10

No, dogwood trees smell like ass when they bloom in the spring, and I mean ass ass like it it's a very distinct smell and it's gross

Josh 23:23

interesting I didn't know that

Pamela 23:26

it's so bad and then yeah the pollen it's just it's a miserable experience all the way around

Josh 23:32

I have questions about why that needs to exist like why does a tree that smells bad that produces terrible pollen

Pamela 23:38

why do wasps exist why do flying ants why do yeah like

Josh 23:43

yeah I have many questions for the maker whenever I meet whoever they are.

Pamela 23:47

Probably because we're actually in hell.

Josh 23:51

Right. Right. This is all just a simulation. Yeah. And we're trapped in the bowels of hell.

Pamela 23:56

Yeah.

Josh 23:57

Cool.

Pamela 23:58

Particularly.

Josh 24:00

God, especially Texas in August. Yeah. So we've both done some travel recently and we have some more travel coming up actually, which I'm excited about. But I was thinking, you know, your husband just got back from a work trip and I travel so much. frequently. You were just in Louisville, blah, blah, blah. And because we live in Dallas, you mentioned Texas, made me think of this. Because we live in Dallas, we are blessed with having two airlines that hub out of the North Texas area. We have American and we have Southwest. And I have been a Southwest fanboy for For a very long time. And I think it's important to clarify, I've been a Love Field, the airport that Southwest is based out of. I'm a Love Field fanboy more than I'm a Southwest fanboy. And they're starting to make all these changes.

Pamela 24:52

If I can be a fanboy, so am I.

Josh 24:54

Yeah. They're making all these changes and all this. And I'm just wondering, like, I don't. I don't get it. I don't understand why they are... I mean, other than the fact that a ton of private equity has been pumped into that brand, which that is where all these problems are coming from. But... Do you think that they're doing anything that is remotely going to be helpful to them as a brand, given all the changes they're making and stuff like that?

Pamela 25:23

I talked about this this week, actually, with some people. I was at a conference in Louisville, and we talked about it. And I don't know if... I don't know. I kind of go back and forth. I don't know if I'm just resistant to change in this particular arena. It is n't unknown that Southwest has struggled financially for several years. And I think some of that is because they haven't changed. Or they've changed very slowly. They have their core offerings and their core values, and maybe that's not helping them financially. So they did bring in this private equity firm. They're now basically turning into every other airline, which is frustrating for us loyal customers. But here's my question. How often do you actually use your two free bags?

Josh 26:28

Okay, so for me, I'm going to be an outlier in answering this question because...

Pamela 26:34

When you travel with your family, not for work.

Josh 26:37

Well, again, when I travel with my family, I use the free bags a lot because it just allows for a lot of flexibility. I've got a 9-year-old and 11-year-old and a spouse that...

Pamela 26:52

She likes her shoes.

Josh 26:54

She's not a light packer. Even though she's literally half my size, she takes up three-fourths of the luggage.

Pamela 27:00

Listen, you need a bag for boots.

Josh 27:01

I don't disagree. I'm not pushing back against this habit. It is a reality of traveling with this wonderful, fantastic human being who I love very much. Because you're listening to this and I love you. Please come home later. I really really... I get that we need some flexibility. And so with Southwest allowing that, we did use it mostly because it was available for us to use.

Pamela 27:31

Yeah.

Josh 27:33

And then from a professional standpoint, I use it all the time because I frequently am traveling with a substantial amount of equipment. And so we actually have specialized bags that I can pack that stuff in. And I have media passes and things like that that allow me to check heavy bags. So I am an outlier in that we have used it. But that being said, There's plenty of situations in which I wouldn't if I didn't have it available to me.

Pamela 27:59

True.

Josh 28:00

For me, the draw has always been Love Field more so than Southwest because DFW is such a colossal pain in the ass. I mean, there's about to be six terminals. There's five now. The sixth is under construction. For starters, that place is always under construction. Every time I'm there.

Pamela 28:17

And it's really bad right now because of the World Cup coming here next year.

Josh 28:22

And so there's about to be six independent terminals. And getting in and out of those is such a disaster. I just...

Pamela 28:32

Well, and your flight can change from one terminal to the next.

Josh 28:35

Oh, yeah.

Pamela 28:36

And back. And it changes constantly.

Josh 28:39

At least at Love Field, when you have a gate change, it's like, oh, I have a four minute walk to my new gate and I'm not getting on a tram and I'm not doing whatever so

Pamela 28:48

I do I love Love Field as well because I have literally parked in the parking garage with 15 minutes to board and made it before I got my group got called

Josh 29:00

That makes me very nervous

Pamela 29:02

But, you know, sometimes you're just, I got to drive across the city to get there. And traffic in DFW is not always kind.

Josh 29:12

No.

Pamela 29:12

So, but I love, that's, it feels weird to say I love Love.

Josh 29:18

Yeah.

Pamela 29:19

I love Love Field. It sounds weird. But I do because I get in and out quickly. Yeah. Except for the one time, which we will get into, that it turned out to be a bigger pain and I wasn't even going anywhere. But... Pre-check. Quick and easy. Yes. I can get straight on... Because there's only, what, 20 gates?

Josh 29:42

Yeah, 20 gates.

Pamela 29:43

Yeah, and two terminals. And they're...

Josh 29:45

Piece of cake. Yeah.

Pamela 29:46

Just a Y. Louisville's like that, too.

Josh 29:49

Oh, really?

Pamela 29:50

Yeah.

Josh 29:50

I've flown in and out of Louisville only once.

Pamela 29:53

The only problem with Louisville is that people are just slow. Like, everybody in Louisville is asleep.

Josh 29:59

Yeah.

Pamela 29:59

So...

Josh 29:59

You know, got nothing to do.

Pamela 30:01

Sleepy town.

Josh 30:01

Yeah.

Pamela 30:02

But...

Josh 30:02

I really feel like... So... To quote you, I'm not sure if it's just me hating change or if I really think that this amount of change is a bad idea, but... I understand a lot of the critiques that Southwest got about open seating. I think that was a lot of what drove a lot of people away from them, because a lot of folks, especially frequent travelers, they want to know that, okay i'm gonna get on this plane and I have a guaranteed seat where I want it, I'm going to be comfortable and I don't have to worry about it. So I understand that. But at the same time, if you have some status or if you buy early bird or whatever, you can get on the plane with ample great seat options.

Pamela 30:49

Well, my thing is every other airline does that. So if that's what you want, then fly American or fly Delta or fly whatever. To me, the appeal with Southwest was that it was different.

Josh 31:02

Yeah.

Pamela 31:03

You did get the two free bags. You do have open seating. To me, it was just more family friendly.

Josh 31:07

Yeah, definitely.

Pamela 31:10

Being able... able to get on early with credit cards and perks. To me, the changes didn't make sense. And I think as someone who specializes in change management, it was not rolled out well.

Josh 31:26

No, it wasn't.

Pamela 31:26

It did not roll out with the customer in mind. When... Southwest had that big debacle a couple years ago around the holidays.

Josh 31:40

Oh, yeah.

Pamela 31:41

Yeah, like their systems went down.

Josh 31:43

I was out in it. I was stranded out in it.

Pamela 31:48

And when they... when the dust settled from that, the CEO came out with a letter of, we're so sorry, this is how we're going to fix this, da-da-da-da-da-da. it helped bring a little more trust to the airline for people who were definitely like loyal, like, okay, like you do care. Like you didn't, yeah, we probably, there were ways to prevent this and X, Y, and Z, but at least they came out and just said, we're sorry, we're going to do better. Yeah. With this rollout, it was pretty much, it felt more like, we're doing this and suck it up. There was no love, heart to the announcement. And I think that did them a disservice. I think them not coming... If it were my way, I would have rolled it out in a way that helped consumers understand why these changes were being made and what the changes looked like and how to anticipate them. It came out very cold of we're doing this and you either embrace it or go somewhere else. It lost that culture to Southwest that tells you we care.

Josh 33:11

Yeah.

Pamela 33:11

It felt very much like we don't care. And I think that's because they had the VC firm come in and basically make these changes. And they were like, we need to turn this around financially. We don't like the way you're doing things. We're going to do them differently. It kind of felt like maybe they didn't even have a say. I don't know. Obviously, if I'm wrong in any of this, correct me. But it felt very cold, and it didn't feel like Southwest.

Josh 33:47

Yeah. Well, and for a brand that has actively recruited people who are friendly, people who care about the customer experience, people who are trying to just not work for some job or some airline, but they kind of bought into the culture of it all, I could see that being some real whiplash for a lot of internal people who thought they were buying into a particular culture and now the rug of that culture is pulled out from under them. That's got to be pretty uncool. I don't see... I could see a lot of people planning their exit because at this point, if it's going to be like every other airline, then cool, I'm going to go find the paycheck of the best airline that I can and sorry. And so I could see a situation where they have exodus of a lot of really great people that will only further tank the overall image of the brand because now it's just reinforcing this idea that we're just like everybody else. And to your point, a huge part of the selling point for them was they weren't like everybody else.

Pamela 34:52

Exactly.

Josh 34:52

The Open seating never bothered me.

Pamela 34:55

It never bothered me.

Josh 34:56

The two free bags I love.

Pamela 34:59

Especially like when we went to Disney.

Josh 35:02

Oh yeah.

Pamela 35:03

Because we would basically, we had bags that we didn't fill up because we knew we were going to be bringing things home. So, you know, between the four of us, we had, eight checked bags plus carry-ons. So we had all kinds of stuff that we could take with us or bring back. So yeah, I hate that we don't have that. The option's not anywhere else. And so I chose Southwest, regardless of if it was the cheapest option, I had brand loyalty. I had no problems with the seating, the two free bags.

Josh 35:43

Well, family boarding, you mentioned that earlier.

Pamela 35:44

Yeah, family boarding.

Josh 35:45

Yeah, after Group A.

Pamela 35:46

Yeah, and you could earn points pretty quickly. And they've just revamped all of it. It didn't roll out very well. No. And another thing that I thought about, too, is if you've been to business school, Southwest is in textbooks of how they do their business. I have had several classes where we have studied, done case studies and use cases on the Southwest model and they teach the principles and values of Southwest in business schools, or at least they used to, I don't, I don't know if they do anymore, but, um, that was another reason why I always admired Southwest was because they did things differently and now they've turned into every other, or they're turning into every other airline.

Josh 36:38

Yeah.

Pamela 36:39

Um, and I just, I hate that. I hate that. Like, we're just losing that culture because there's no other, no other airline has a culture like Southwest.

Josh 36:48

They don't. And I think that's– maybe that's one of the reasons why people feel almost personally offended by some of these changes because it's like– well, but you were like one of the last beacons of ethical, well-done business practices and–

Pamela 37:08

Their logo is a heart.

Josh 37:10

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I just– There is some level of betrayal that you feel from brands like that sometimes when they take such a pivot away from things that have been a core part of their culture for so long. And I think that's really at the root of a lot of the negative responses from the public is like, well, but you guys said you were different. You've spent decades telling us how different you are and how great it is and how you should trust us with your loyalty and your dollars and all that. And now it just feels like, oh, okay, so that was true. until there was big money involved.

Pamela 37:46

Yeah.

Josh 37:47

And it just feels yucky.

Pamela 37:49

Well, and if we, you know, kind of step back a little bit and look at this from like a 30,000 foot view.

Josh 37:58

Your current cruising altitude?

Pamela 38:00

No, no pun intended. I think... As millennials, we enjoy nostalgia.

Josh 38:09

Yes.

Pamela 38:10

We like nostalgia. We like those things that we grew up with to not change a lot. We do have things that have kind of gone away and they've come back. To us, especially in the climate that we're in right now with everything so uncertain, it's like any little bit of joy we have, we are clinging on to.

Josh 38:29

Absolutely.

Pamela 38:30

And when that joy... shifts or changes or goes in a negative direction, I feel like we kind of bristle at that because it feels like we're losing another thing.

Josh 38:43

Yeah, totally. Oh, man, I completely agree. And, you know, we hold on to things pretty tightly that are sort of anchors to points of our lives that feel more simple and cleaner in this way. You know, I think that's why there's still such a craze around Harry Potter with our generation because a lot of us grew up basically at the same age as those characters. And so as those books are released, the first book came out and Harry's 11 years old in that book. And I have friends who are 11 years old when the book came out. And so they literally were reading these books into their adult years and connecting with those characters. And it's largely because of this heavy pull of nostalgia. It just feels like a simpler time. We have all these fond memories around these things and going to midnight book releases and signings and things like that. I think you're absolutely right. Our generation, more so than others as far as I can tell, we do hold on to those things. For better or worse, we are trying to reclaim some level of I don't know, simplicity or comfort or safety. Maybe it's safety. Safety feels like the right word to me. But I don't know. When we see these brands make big changes and bold decisions and it feels, from the outside looking in, like a horribly irresponsible practice, it's just– there's a disappointment that comes with it. That's kind of hard to explain.

Pamela 40:20

Yeah.

Josh 40:20

Um,

Pamela 40:21

and it's change, you know, like we as a generation have been forced into adapting change. We have to do it. Like it's, it's survival at this point. Um, and maybe every generation has been like that. I feel like we've just had a lot more pressure to adapt. And so when we have an anchor like Southwest, like Nintendo, like,

Josh 40:46

Oh, Nintendo. 

Pamela 40:46

you know, any of these things and they make big, bold, sweeping changes that we just... that just kind of rock that core, um, that really it's, it's a, it's a value change.

Josh 41:02

Yeah.

Pamela 41:03

I think it does. I think our quote unquote psychological safety feels threatened.

Josh 41:08

Yeah.

Pamela 41:09

Um, where it's kind of like, Oh God, if this is changing, you know, it's one more thing. It's one more thing that's changed. It's one more thing. I can't, I feel like I can't trust it. What is this going to look like? Is this going to fall apart? Like, are we still going to have Southwest in 10 years? Like, you know, it just, it just compounds the, the stress and the anxiety that we...

Josh 41:31

that we carry anyway. You know, I think you're absolutely right. And I think that Southwest has really made some mistakes not calling us before they rolled out some of these changes and getting our specific.

Pamela 41:44

Yeah. Well, you know what they could have and we just ignored it because we don't answer the phone for numbers we don't recognize. So that could be it.

Josh 41:52

Oh, man. How many opportunities have we missed because we just don't answer?

Pamela 41:56

Oh, so many. But you know what?

Josh 41:58

I don't regret it.

Pamela 41:59

I don't. And if it's important you'll leave a voicemail that I'll read.

Josh 42:03

Right. Exactly. Because I'm still not going to listen to your actual voice.

Pamela 42:06

Nope.

Josh 42:07

Yeah. But I will read the transcript of the voicemail you leave because it's 2025. And that's what we do. Well, I appreciate you jumping in with us, everyone, as we dissect all of the business fallacies of the second largest airline in the United States.

Pamela 42:23

Right.

Josh 42:23

And yeah, we hope to regale you with even more business analysis in future episodes. So do like and subscribe but thank you you all so much for joining us and we'll be back in your ear holes next week.

Pamela 42:36

Absolutely. Well that's it for premeditated opinions where the thoughts were fully baked and only mildly regrettable

Josh 42:42

and if you enjoyed today's episode congrats on having truly excellent taste in podcasts and also opinions

Pamela 42:48

send this to someone who needs to feel seen dragged or both we'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling

Josh 42:58

and until then please stay hydrated and and behave yourself in the comments.

Pamela 43:03

But if you don't share them with us.