Pamela: 0:00

Then they have these auditing, they call them auditing sessions. Um, and basically it's kind of like a confessional.

Josh: 0:12

Cool.

Pamela: 0:12

Uh is one way to look at it. So except they have a a machine that they use that is made up.

Josh: 0:20

Right.

Pamela: 0:22

And

Josh: 0:24

It's a toaster some other stuff.

Pamela: 0:24

Pretty much. Y ou're listening to Premeditated Opinions because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway. I'm Pamela.

Josh: 0:41

And I'm Josh, and we are two people who somehow share a brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones. Each week, we unpack anything from politics and religion to carpool dread and everything in between.

Pamela: 0:53

You know, it would really help us a lot if you followed us on Instagram and YouTube. Giving us a like and a follow is probably the best thing your thumbs will do today.

Josh: 1:02

We are not experts. We are just way too confident in our own opinions. With all that being said, let's get started. So I uh was flipping through HBO uh not that long ago, and I stumbled on a documentary that a whole bunch of people have recommended to me uh called Going Clear. All about Scientology and uh, you know, the some of the really weird and bizarre elements of that organization. And I I know that you and I have kind of had some brief conversations about that uh in the past, but this has kind of come around and is is uh something on your mind again. So what was kind of your what was kind of your on-ramp to your fascination with Scientology? And for the record, she is not a practicing Scientologist, like that is not what's happening. Um but no, the I just know that it's a point of fascination. So how did you get there?

Pamela: 1:58

Yeah. I so you know, I think like most of us, we kind of heard about it, you know, when Tom Cruise was on Oprah, and then every now and then it would kind of come up in, you know, pop culture, this idea of religion and Scientology, and is Scientology a religion? And um, you know, it always kind of just was in the back of my mind that and I just didn't think much of it. So when Leah Rimini's book Troublemaker came out, uh I don't know, I just it it sounded interesting and I was like, okay, I'd be interested in learning a little bit more about Scientology and holy moly. So so first of all, her book starts out amazing because she basically just lays out every sin she's committed, every horrible thing that she said, every thought that she's thought, like all of these things. Um because essentially what Scientology will do is kind of, and we'll we'll get a little more into this, but what they do is they take all of your secrets and hold them against you. So she is basically saying, here's all the mess.

Josh: 3:28

Right, yeah. She's controlling the narrative by sort of releasing all of this ahead of time so they don't have any dirt on her. Is am I getting that right?

Pamela: 3:37

Yeah, yeah, pretty much, pretty much. Yeah. So um, yeah, I read that book and I was like

Josh: 3:45

Did she do anything juicy?

Pamela: 3:47

I mean, it was definitely some there was definitely some things in there that you wouldn't normally probably put out in a book for the world to read.

Josh: 3:56

Yeah.

Pamela: 3:57

Um, but nothing super like salacious. Okay. I just had no idea. Like and and I I think that's because they are very good at keeping this stuff under wraps.

Josh: 4:08

Right. Yeah.

Pamela: 4:08

And they don't want people to see the dark underbelly of their " " religion. Um, that term is debatable when used to discuss Scientology. I just went down the whole rabbit hole of like, what is this? Uh, how did it start? Um, and interestingly enough, my husband had already kind of done some of that research already. And so he was like, Oh, listen to this podcast and do this. And he's like, Oh yeah, like they're bad shit crazy and like all these things. And people say that, and you're like, okay, but like, what does that mean? What does that look like? Yeah. My very first clue into how nuts this was, is that L. Ron Hubbard, so the guy who started um this organization was a science fiction writer.

Josh: 5:09

Yeah. I remember hearing that at some point.

Pamela: 5:11

Yeah, and and so immediately I'm like, wait a minute.

Josh: 5:15

Right.

Pamela: 5:15

Like, you know, when you think about religions, you think that they're, you know, thousands of years old and and and you know, I knew a little I'd heard a little bit about there being like aliens and things involved. And I'm like, are you like do people who join Scientology know this? Like, do they know that this is basically been created by by a sci-fi writer? And yeah, he was a very prominent sci-fi writer uh growing up. He um wrote a lot of uh sci-fi short stories, and that's how he made money um when he was younger. And you know, he was in he was very um talented in in that ecosystem, I guess. And I don't know the exact origin of Scientology, but L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book called Dianetics. And it was basically kind of a self-help psychology book um that he completely made up.

Josh: 6:26

Like here are all these self-help principles that I just concocted right now.

Pamela: 6:30

Yeah. So he's he started it as Dianetics, and some people even say that it was pretty much a tax scheme. So he was he wanted to be able to basically make money and not pay taxes. So he created a religion. He managed to get it actually established as a religion, um, and the IRS saw it, you know, as a religion and and he was tax exempt. Um, and it still is to this day.

Josh: 6:59

Yeah.

Pamela: 7:00

Now it's interesting because it very much follows the pattern of a cult. You know, cults have specific um characteristics about them and Scientology very much follows the prescription of a cult. But they they manage to keep their religious status because they attack people individually. So they will find out who is um affiliated, works for the IRS, someone who may have authority to um either grant or remove their tax exempt status, they will have hire PIs to basically dig up dirt on these people.

Josh: 7:56

Oh my gosh.

Pamela: 7:57

And then harass them and scare them and threaten them so that way anytime the the issue comes up of should they be tax exempt, um, they scare these people into submission. Like it is terrifying. Yeah, it is terrifying. Like that's why I've always been like a little nervous to even talk about or even write about Scientology because I'm like, I don't want to get on a list. So yeah, here we are. Um, but yeah.

Josh: 8:24

I mean, so one of the things that I remember hearing, and I'm not I don't remember if it was from the Going Clear documentary or from something else. Cause I think I think John Oliver has done a last week tonight episode on Scientology, but it's been quite a while. I'm uh my memory on it's vague. But they've made some really fascinating business decisions along the way using their tax exempt status and all of that. If I'm remembering this correctly, they bought up a ton of real estate. And aren't they like one of the largest real estate owners uh uh uh of any nonprofit or something like that? Like I'm I need to fact-check that comment. I am not confident in that comment, but I remember there being a whole real estate component.

Pamela: 9:06

Yeah, there is. So, so how how Scientology basically works is they prey on people, typically people who are, you know, self-conscious or have low self-esteem or are just dealing with, you know, big issues of what is my purpose, and and you know, trying to kind of find something that they can belong to. And Scientology's got this really great way of basically kind of tapping into that and saying, we can provide you with purpose. Like our mission is to what they call clear.

Josh: 9:48

Right.

Pamela: 9:49

Clear clear the world, which is basically eliminate it of sin, but the sin they call aliens. So there, these are little engrams, I think, and Thetans are what they call them again, all made up by L. Ron Hubbard and his his sci-fi background.

Josh: 10:13

Yeah.

Pamela: 10:14

Um and you basically kind of go through these programs and the this training to get rid of these aliens that are, you know, in your in your body and your mind.

Josh: 10:29

And um, it makes perfect sense, really. I mean, when you lay it out like that, we definitely have aliens. Yes, it's a problem.

Pamela: 10:37

So so what they do is you you know, you go, you attend one of these sessions, they are very aggressive. So when they get a hold of your name and your information, like they are very aggressive. If you show any kind of interest in in Scientology, like you fill out a form online or anything, like they will harass you.

Josh: 11:01

Yeah.

Pamela: 11:02

Um, because I always kind of struggled with like, how do people even get into this?

Josh: 11:08

Yeah.

Pamela: 11:09

You know, like what is the appeal here? Like, if somebody were to tell me, hey, come join this religion with me that was created by a sci-fi writer, like I'd be like, you're out of your flipping mind. Like, especially to consider it a religion.

Josh: 11:21

Right.

Pamela: 11:21

Um, but you know, obviously they don't present it that way. You know, it's very much a help us help you. Um, and so when you they when they kind of get to that, it's it's all sales. Yeah, it's all sales. So once they kind of get you to kind of buy into, hey, I I want to explore more of this, they sell you courses.

Josh: 11:46

Oh my gosh.

Pamela: 11:47

And so, you know, they start small, you know, like probably I don't know, like I'm I'm gonna say like probably 20, 30 bucks or a hundred bucks or something, and you go through these courses and you learn about all the Scientology uh language. Um, they have their own like vocabulary. So you go through these courses, you start learning about how to become clear.

Josh: 12:18

Right.

Pamela: 12:19

And unfortunately, like in order to go to go clear, you have these different stages that you have to work yourself up toward. There's eight stages, and of course, each stage has so many courses, you gotta go through those, and then you go get and the higher you go up, the more expensive everything becomes. And essentially, the goal is to get to the very top and you are invincible, Right. Like you cannot get sick. Right. You cannot

Josh: 12:51

You glow a little bit.

Pamela: 12:52

Probably like you and you learn about kind of the like these upper tiers, which is interesting because when he wrote Dianetics and started building out these programs, he had these top tiers, but he didn't even have them finished.

Josh: 13:06

Oh, wow.

Pamela: 13:07

Like you, he didn't even know. So, like when you finally sort of

Josh: 13:10

George R. R. Martin, like he actually finished.

Pamela: 13:13

Exactly. Yep. Yep. Once you start in the program, they they also have, you know, so so you get these books, you pay for these books, you pay for these courses, and it is time consuming. Like it is demanding. Like you have to go to one of these centers several times a week. Um, you pretty much spend all of your free time going through these courses and getting these things done. Um, they put a little bit of pressure on you to get them done pretty quickly. Um so that way they can basically just continue to keep selling you more and more of these courses. And then they have these auditing, they call them auditing sessions. Um and basically it's kind of like a confessional.

Josh: 14:04

Cool.

Pamela: 14:05

Uh is one way to look at it. So, except they have a a machine that they use that is made up.

Josh: 14:13

Right. Yeah.

Pamela: 14:14

And

Josh: 14:16

A toaster with some other stuff on it.

Pamela: 14:17

Pretty much. So what they end up doing is having you tell them all their deepest, darkest secrets. And they record all of that.

Josh: 14:25

Yeah.

Pamela: 14:25

And they keep it in a file. And so to you, as the consumer, are sitting here thinking, like, oh, I'm getting all this off my chest. Like this is and I'm sure they do feel great afterwards. It's kind of like, okay, I got all of these lies and sins and things that I've done, like off my chest. And it's all completely arbitrary. Um, because the auditor, the the consumer doesn't see what the machine is doing. And I mean, the auditor is pretty much just like, oh, that's a lie. Oh, that's a Thetan. Oh, that's that's not um, you know, that's your little, that's one of your little aliens in there. Like, we gotta get rid of that. So that is for you kind of your your typical consumer of Scientology. They they prey on a couple of your weaknesses, um, they get you into the program, and then they basically drain your bank accounts and make you, they, they, they encourage people and help people sign up for credit cards in order to continue to pay for these courses and work your way up. Um, and the sad this is the really sad thing. Several people have made it after spending hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars to get to the top. And then they get up there and they realize like it's all bullshit. Like, like they still get sick, right? They still get cancer, right? They still, you know, are grappling with sin and all of these things. Um, you know, all the promises that were made just fail to materialize.

Josh: 16:07

God.

Pamela: 16:07

Which, which is what Leah Remini's mom describes.

Josh: 16:10

Oh, really? Okay.

Pamela: 16:11

And I think it's in the book. Honestly, I've done so much research on this, like I'm not sure, but either her mom talks about it in the book or it could even be the show, because there's a there's an A&E show.

Josh: 16:22

That's right. I remember hearing about that. I don't remember what it's called.

Pamela: 16:26

By the aftermath, they call it the Aftermath Foundation. Um, but there was a show on A&E that Scientology, again, basically threatened the network with so many lawsuits. So they have their own attorneys.

Josh: 16:40

Oh, I'm sure.

Pamela: 16:41

So, and they, I mean, they lawyer the hell up. Yeah. And those attorneys will sue for every single little thing. Um, and so they ended up canceling the show um because they were the the network was getting all these threats.

Josh: 17:01

It's shocking that they have enough legal horsepower to back down a major TV network. Like that's that's shocking.

Pamela: 17:08

Okay, so how many other religions lawyer up like that?

Josh: 17:14

Right. Right. I mean, the Mormon church didn't lawyer up against the Book of Mormon musical, and boy, I've seen that musical. And

Pamela: 17:23

And I'm not saying that churches don't have legal representation, right? But not to the extent that sign, I mean, they have a whole department of that deals with everything from the contracts that you sign to uh NDAs to litigation uh and and anything else that that you would need legal representation for. These are staffed positions.

Josh: 17:50

Yeah, you know, which is bananas. So I remember hearing a headline, and and I don't I I truly don't remember a lot of detail about this, but I remember hearing some kind of headline about how the leader of the Church of Scientology, his wife, has been like missing for a shocking amount of time.

Pamela: 18:10

So that's David Miscavige and his wife.

Josh: 18:12

That's his name. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pamela: 18:13

His wife is Shelly Miscavige. We'll get to that in just a second.

Josh: 18:17

Got it.

Pamela: 18:17

Um, so you have like the like that's kind of your typical off the street path. Now, you can join what they call the Sea org. Let's say you get into Scientology and you just become dedicated, like the your ready to go all in.

Josh: 18:36

Yeah, you're Tom Cruising it.

Pamela: 18:38

You are. Um actually, it's he even he's on a different track. He's on like a celebrity track.

Josh: 18:44

Got it.

Pamela: 18:45

And so that's another piece of this. It's it's very convoluted.

Josh: 18:49

Yeah.

Pamela: 18:50

So if you're just uh Joe Schmo and you basically want to kind of devote your life to Scientology, uh you're almost like kind of becoming like clergy or you know, going into a monastery. Like it's kind of how we can compare it. Uh, you join the Sea Org. And the Sea Org is the reason it's called the Sea Org, it's in um Tampa, Florida, uh, and it's on ships because international waters.

Josh: 19:21

Oh. Oh, that's nefarious.

Pamela: 19:25

Yeah. These people sign what are called billion-year contracts.

Josh: 19:31

Okay.

Pamela: 19:32

Because Scientology is multiple lifetimes. Like and the other thing, you can carry these little Thetan alien things with you for multiple lifetimes.

Josh: 19:47

Ah.

Pamela: 19:47

So you are still kind of paying for the sins of your previous lifetimes.

Josh: 19:54

It's there's a lot going on.

Pamela: 19:58

Oh. Yeah. They are um given all of the courses for free. But you have to like live on the ship, live in the barracks, and you get you still have to pay for things, but you get very little pay. I mean, we're talking you're s you're working 18 to 20 hours a day for maybe a couple of dollars an hour.

Josh: 20:29

Good grief.

Pamela: 20:30

Or a cup, you know, maybe 70 bucks a week.

Josh: 20:33

So you're trapped.

Pamela: 20:34

You are.

Josh: 20:34

Yeah.

Pamela: 20:35

You're stuck

Josh: 20:36

forever.

Pamela: 20:36

Yeah. And they have all this dirt on you, and it's very hard to get out. Um and because the way, again, that the contracts are all written, it is very hard to get out. Now you're encouraged to bring your friends and family into Scientology.

Josh: 20:58

Yeah.

Pamela: 20:59

And if they refuse, they are considered enemies and you are to disassociate from them.

Josh: 21:06

Cool.

Pamela: 21:07

So now you're isolated from the world.

Josh: 21:11

Right.

Pamela: 21:12

You know, you're isolated, you're isolated from your family. Um, and if for one day, one day you wake up and realize, like, oh, I'm in a religion uh created by a guy who is a sci-fi writer, I I I'm stuck. Yeah. Like you, you cannot get out. Um, because they make communication in and out very difficult. And you are so heavily indoctrinated being on that ship and being in that organization. You don't get access to the internet, you don't get access to media, you get access to nothing on the outside. Um, and so, and unfortunately, a lot of people in the Sea Org, it's multi-generational.

Josh: 22:02

Oh, wow.

Pamela: 22:03

So it's I mean,

Josh: 22:04

I guess that makes sense.

Pamela: 22:05

Yeah, which is also interesting because they don't want you to have children, they don't want you to have a family, like they want you dedicated to

Josh: 22:17

The organization.

Pamela: 22:18

the organization. Huh. So I guess the people who are in it for multiple generations are just people who maybe already had kids and yeah, so so after that. In Leah Remini's uh situation, um, her mother joined as an adult and brought her kids in with her. And then essentially Leah and her sister grew up in the Sea Org.

Josh: 22:47

Oh, really? Oh, interesting.

Pamela: 22:49

But they also most of the time spent they were alone.

Josh: 22:55

Yeah.

Pamela: 22:55

They were they were left, like they they separate almost the kids from the adults, and the children are pretty much left to raise themselves.

Josh: 23:04

Wow.

Pamela: 23:05

It's it's it's wild. It's wild. So so yeah, so you got the normal path, you got the Sea Org path, and then you have the celebrity path. So that's typically what we see. So, you know, John Travolta, um, Tom Cruise.

Josh: 23:21

I know Elizabeth Moss.

Pamela: 23:22

Elizabeth Moss. Celebrities are a little bit different, like they are used as PR.

Josh: 23:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pamela: 23:29

So they get treated like royalty, um, like celebrities. They pretty much can say and do whatever they want. They get invited to special events. Um, they have their own, it's called Celebrity Center. It's the big blue building in LA. Interesting. If you've ever seen that. Um, and you know, everyday people cannot interact really with the celebrities, but they also do a little bit of this auditing. So they get a bunch of dirt on the celebrities.

Josh: 24:03

Oh.

Pamela: 24:04

And so that's why they that's how they get stuck.

Josh: 24:07

Yeah.

Pamela: 24:08

Because it's like, oh, if this comes out, like uh, my career is ruined or or you know, whatever, or they have all these secrets on them.

Josh: 24:16

Interesting.

Pamela: 24:17

It's it's it's terrifying.

Josh: 24:20

Yeah.

Pamela: 24:21

It is terrifying, it's fascinating, yeah, but it's terrifying.

Josh: 24:26

I I I listen to stuff like that, and it just blows my mind that we as human beings are that gullible, but we really are. Like Scientology is drawing enough people to still be sustainable, apparently. There, there's it, their marketing is good enough to where folks are are showing up and participating in all of this. And just hearing someone describe all of this out loud makes me think like, how do we how do people get to the place where they're like, oh, this is fine, this is normal.

Pamela: 24:59

So, so exactly. And that was where when I read her book and then I watched Going Clear, like I really I kept diving in because I wanted to understand that question. Like, how does someone get into this? How does someone stay in this? Like, yeah, I was so interested. I'm like, what is the psychology here? Like, how do people get interested in this? How do they get involved? How do they stay? For I mean, there are still people who just don't, I don't have another way of saying it, just don't pay attention.

Josh: 25:30

Right.

Pamela: 25:30

You know, the I mean, and and honestly, I can kind of fall into that bucket. It's like I I kind of knew about Scientology, I'd heard it be called a religion, but I just never thought about it. Um, you know, a lot of it is people just they'll walk by a Scientology um building, and a lot of times they just have people standing outside and you know, with pamphlets and and and things like that, and um just talk to you like and they they they they have it down to a science of of asking the right questions to kind of get you thinking and and and that's how a lot of cults operate. Yeah, they find that vulnerability and they uh exploit it.

Josh: 26:18

Yeah.

Pamela: 26:19

And Scientology just does the same thing, and they've had to evolve over time because you know, as the internet comes up, but they have taught their parishioners, is what they call them, um, to that everything that the news media is fake, that it's not to be trusted, psychology is not to be trusted, doctors are not to be trusted, like they it is Scientology, it is their teachings, and that is the way to go, and that is the right.

Josh: 26:46

And yeah.

Pamela: 26:47

And I can definitely see where if you're someone who is just trying to find somewhere to belong, or you're in pain, and you just like you have someone who who has an answer, yeah, you know, and it's and it's really not difficult, you know. It's just, oh yeah, I'm gonna learn about this, and and they really drive their purpose as clearing the world. So they have they have a tendency to um they have these annual like gala events and they're they're propaganda events, and they talk about how they go to disaster areas and pass out water, and and um they say, Oh, yeah, there's millions of Scientologists out there already, and really it's like maybe 20,000 people, right? Yeah, and but you know, who's gonna refute them? Right, you know, because again, they're telling them not to believe the internet and not to believe the media, and any outside pretty much anyone who speaks against Scientology is therefore an enemy, and you need to disassociate from them.

Josh: 28:03

Right.

Pamela: 28:04

And not listen to them. You know, it's very brilliantly done. I I'll be honest, and

Josh: 28:10

Terrifying.

Pamela: 28:11

It is, and it and until you start to question certain things, um now a lot of people get to a point where they want to stay in, but they're starting to question things, which starts to get real murky. Um, and if you push so far, Scientology actually has its own prison.

Josh: 28:40

Yeah. I remember a little bit about this.

Pamela: 28:42

They call it a rehabilitation force or something like that. But it's essentially a prison. Um, and you go in there and you are tortured until you finally conform. It's intense, yeah. It is probably very illegal, but because it's hidden behind this religious, this like religion label. And then it's just it's it's gross to be honest. Like they managed to get religion status, they managed to be tax exempt, so that means all the hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars that they are basically taking from people um and and ruining their lives, tax exempt.

Josh: 29:37

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Pamela: 29:38

And they are getting away with it, and they have a lot of protections under that status because of the lines between church and state.

Josh: 29:47

Yeah.

Pamela: 29:48

And they are they have been clever enough again to have that legal um branch that they will just attack, attack, attack until people stop looking into it.

Josh: 30:05

Wow.

Pamela: 30:05

So that goes back to when you were talking about Shelly Miscavige. So Shelly and Leah were friends. Now, Shelly is David Miscavige's wife. David Miscavige took over the organization after L. Ron Hubbard passed.

Josh: 30:23

Okay.

Pamela: 30:24

Or left his body. Um, and she was a top official in the Sea Org. And she was last seen in 2007.

Josh: 30:39

Whoa.

Pamela: 30:40

Yeah.

Josh: 30:40

That's a long time ago.

Pamela: 30:42

Yeah. So around 2007. So around the the Tom Cruise Katie Holmes wedding, uh, Leah was, you know, asking around, poking around, like, hey, is any like Shelly should be here? Um, everyone else is here, where's Shelly? And she was pretty much silenced.

Josh: 31:03

Wow.

Pamela: 31:04

And that's when she kind of really started pulling away from the church because she's like, what's going on here? Like, where is she? She wouldn't just disappear. It's wild. And and I don't want to go down the whole conspiracy theory situation, but it is definitely an organization that my personal opinion, it needs to be dismantled. It needs to it is a cult, it needs to lose its tax exempt status because it is hurting people. Yeah, it is destroying people's lives. Um, if you ever watch The Aftermath on A&E, I mean, they interview people who have escaped.

Josh: 31:49

Yeah.

Pamela: 31:50

And their stories, and you know, there's one, uh, her name is Claire, heartbreaking story. Um, she was basically she was a Sea Org member, and her and her husband had gotten pregnant, and the rank that she was at at the Sea org, she was pretty much forced into having an abortion.

Josh: 32:12

Good grief.

Pamela: 32:13

Because they just did not want children like it in the Sea Org. Like it, it's it's awful. Um, and the disassociation, um, the brainwashing, the propaganda. Yeah, it's it's wild.

Josh: 32:29

Yeah. I I haven't known a lot about it, but I'm always fascinated by these organizations that you know seem like they're founded on such wobbly, uh, like completely ridiculous principles, but there are people who are craving community enough and craving purpose enough and craving uh, you know, direction enough to be like, yeah, I'll give this a try. Yeah. You know, and it's hard to like entirely fault their parishioners because there's so much strategy here.

Pamela: 33:02

Yeah, exactly. They're not the ones that are you know, they are the ones that are suffering, right? They don't know that they're suffering.

Josh: 33:12

Yeah.

Pamela: 33:12

Um, and that's how a lot of cults operate. Um, under the guise of like, we're you're you have a purpose. We have a purpose for you. Um, you're doing good things, you're a good person, like, and they feed into whatever that insecurity or vulnerability is. And as long as they can kind of keep that alive within you, that they can pretty much do whatever they want. That's and it's it's it's yeah.

Josh: 33:39

Well, and I again, this is like we are we're not experts on world religions or anything like that, but but to to have something like this that from the outside looking in feels so blatantly toxic and so obviously wrong, it's just it's it's hard to to believe that stuff like this exists on the scale that Scientology does. But here they are. I mean, you know, and they they certainly seem because of all of their real estate assets and because of um, you know, the the celebrity support and followings, they seem kind of dug in.

Pamela: 34:12

Like it seems like I mean their PR is amazing.

Josh: 34:15

Yeah.

Pamela: 34:15

Um, they one thing I found interesting, uh, so I'd mentioned earlier, you know, they go and do disaster relief and then they show videos of people passing out bottles of water. It'll be literally like four or five people in a truck with and they'll go and pick up a couple cases of water and they'll pass them out on video and then leave.

Josh: 34:37

Right.

Pamela: 34:38

And they they act like they've just done all of this work just to save all these people.

Josh: 34:43

Like Look, we're better than the Red Cross.

Pamela: 34:46

Yeah, exactly. And it's all PR, it's all strategy, it's all honestly psychology.

Josh: 34:54

Yeah, yeah.

Pamela: 34:54

Um, which yeah, uh, but it's an organization, it is a business, it's an organization and it's run by a narcissist. Um, and then this man is evil. Like you can you can learn up about him, watch videos, like he puts on a good face in front of the public, but this man is

Josh: 35:18

Yeah

Pamela: 35:18

like evil incarnate. Um, you know, again, who has an entire legal team?

Josh: 35:26

Right.

Pamela: 35:27

You know, I understand having legal representation, and you know, I know the Catholic churches needed legal representation, you know, uh whether good, bad, or indifferent, you still have to have legal representation and a defense.

Josh: 35:41

Right.

Pamela: 35:42

Um, I know that you you mentioned the Mormon church, the Mormon Church took uh litigation against uh the HBO series Big Love.

Josh: 35:51

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

Pamela: 35:53

So at the very end of Big Love, there is a scene where they show a lot of their sacred temple customs kind of behind the veil. And those are very sacred ceremonies for Mormons, and the the Mormon community was furious that that stuff was basically being shown to the world, and I guess it was pretty accurate, but you know, they had legal representation against HBO for basically kind of portraying that for the world to see.

Josh: 36:34

Right.

Pamela: 36:35

But when you have an entire legal staff, like an entire department that is basically created for PR, for litigation, for how to attack people legally, yeah um, and they just they outright lie. You know, they're great at you know the the legalese. Um, and you know, the the church does not um participate in X, Y, and Z. Exactly.

Josh: 37:08

Yeah.

Pamela: 37:09

Like, well, you got a whole bunch of people who have left your organization in very dramatic ways who say very much the opposite, and they're but these people like it is a big deal, especially like with the aftermath, is a big deal for these people to come forward and talk about their experiences. Like it puts a target on their back because now Scientology is going to be harassing these people, trying to get them to shut up or recant their stories or like whatever, like and they are relentless.

Josh: 37:43

I mean, maybe if you're gonna attach yourself to any sort of religious or spiritual set of practices, maybe don't attach yourself to something that you are fearing ever having to get out of. Like that's that I feel like that's sound advice.

Pamela: 37:59

Maybe, maybe go with something that's been around a while.

Josh: 38:04

But longer than the 1950s. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it's and again, I understand, like I I get how people can look at something like this and be like, I'll give it a try. But I really am it makes me angry to think about the predatory behavior involved in just capitalizing on people's insecurities and loneliness and discomfort and all of that. Like it and unfortunately, it's not hard to draw some parallels between those behaviors and even the behaviors of some other major religions and things like that, of just kind of bringing people in and helping them find a home in exchange for money and resources and things. Now, I'm being very reductive in that statement, and I don't mean to be, but the reality is, you know, it's if if someone is just not knowledgeable about the way most religious practices work, and they've watched the Mission Impossible movies, and they're like, well, Tom Cruise is in this thing, so maybe I'll give that a whirl. You know, I see how people could walk through the door really looking to do something beneficial for themselves and then just fall into a massive trap. And this this to me reads like one of those things where by the time you figured out what sort of bad decision you've made, it's too late. You're already invested, you're already in this community, you know. And so it's it's sad to think about the people who are gonna fall for this kind of thing.

Pamela: 39:41

Which is why like I kind of wanted to talk about this topic just because one, it's fascinating.

Josh: 39:48

Oh, it's very interesting.

Pamela: 39:49

And two, like the good thing is I think that Scientology is losing momentum.

Josh: 39:56

Oh, I would hope so.

Pamela: 39:57

Um, again, they they like to tout their numbers in the millions, and it's and it's dwindling.

Josh: 40:02

Right.

Pamela: 40:03

But it needs to be done. Right. Like it needs to be finished. It needs to be, they need to lose their. And so that's what a lot of Leah Remini and Mike Rinder um were trying to put out in the world. Like they were too. So Leah Remini is obviously a celebrity. Uh Mike Rinder was a top-ranking official in the Sea Org, and part of his role in there was to create the PR.

Josh: 40:32

Wow.

Pamela: 40:33

Around and and he was treated horribly. But he was kind of like David Miscavige's like number two for a long time until he left.

Josh: 40:46

Right.

Pamela: 40:46

Um, and he paid handsomely for for that, um, for leaving. But Leah and Mike started the aftermath series to start bringing to light the way that people were being treated and how they were being um uh exploited and all the money and the dissociation and that it's just ruining people's lives.

Josh: 41:13

Right.

Pamela: 41:14

And people are afraid to leave, and pre people are afraid to speak out. Um and so they were trying to bring a lot of that forward and bring a lot of that to light. And, you know, then Scientology shut down that they also had a podcast, Scientology shut down. Um yeah, and they continued with the Aftermouth Foundation. They'll they'll have like little business cards and they'll go to you know, bookstores where Dianetics is, and they'll just stick those, you know, cards in there that just just to try to get people to like think twice. Um unfortunately, Mike Rinder passed like not that long ago. And and uh Leah was Leah and Mike were like brother and sister, they were very close. Um and yeah, he he I think he had cancer. And um but they were doing really great work. And and I was a little nervous that they were gonna lose momentum with that. But again, Scientology's making it very difficult for them. I mean, as which makes sense, but at the same time, as long as they have that tax exempt status, they literally can get away, literally get away with murder.

Josh: 42:34

Yeah, yeah, apparently so. Yeah. Uh I I think at the end of the day, like the if we had something that we wanted you to hear, um, other than just this is interesting and we're fascinated by it and all that, is maybe when things are weird, it's time to ask questions. Like, like if you, a listener, if you are hearing any of this, and you're involved with any sort of you know, spiritual system, religious system, whatever, and and you are starting to have questions around all of that, you're within your rights to lean into those questions and and sort things out for yourself and all of that.

Pamela: 43:15

Your religious organization should not be demanding money from you. Right. It's one thing to ask is another thing to say you cannot move further in this spiritual path unless you give us money for these courses.

Josh: 43:30

Right.

Pamela: 43:31

If your religion, religious organization is making you max out credit cards.

Josh: 43:37

Right. Yeah, and sign up for new ones.

Pamela: 43:40

Exactly. If your religious organization is requiring that you confess or you you give up your deepest, darkest secrets in order to, you know, again, continue on your spiritual path, um, that's a problem. Yeah. If your organization is telling you that your family and friends are enemies for not believing in what you believe.

Josh: 44:09

Yeah.

Pamela: 44:09

You know, I I definitely, if any of these things feel, you know, like they're hitting a nerve, I would just really take a take a look at kind of the organization that you're in and and why you're why you're a part of it. Those are really the big indicators of a cult.

Josh: 44:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and I hope we can do more cult discussion because I'm kind of fascinated by all this.

Pamela: 44:37

Oh, yeah. Like there's there's Nxivm.

Josh: 44:38

Yeah, I was gonna say Nxivm next. Yeah. I watched that whole docuseries.

Pamela: 44:43

Yep. Yeah. So there's there's Nxivm um that was kind of Canadian based. Uh a little bit here, you know, along in in the US along the Canadian border, there was OneTtaste.

Josh: 44:58

I remember OneTaste.

Pamela: 45:00

Yeah, um, which um was sexually exploitative. Um yeah, there's there's several that are just

Josh: 45:12

Bizarre.

Pamela: 45:13

Bizarre. And and here's the thing. Some of these start out with great intentions.

Josh: 45:19

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Pamela: 45:20

You know, they cut they they they c they start with great intentions, they they do want to help people. Um, they it it's just there there comes a line and when that line gets crossed is when things really start to go off the rails. And a lot of it is, you know, you have a very charismatic um leader, if you will, or or front person um who has good intentions and is like, oh, you know, I think that I've got some concept, idea, whatever that can really help other people.

Josh: 45:57

Right.

Pamela: 45:58

And then it's kind of like they start to monetize it, and then uh then there's a little bit of narcissism that kind of comes into that, and then they start enjoying enjoying being worshipped, and and and it just kind of falls apart from there. Funny enough, my husband swears I'm gonna be a cult leader because I come up with these ideas, and he's like, that sounds like a cult.

Josh: 46:27

Yeah.

Pamela: 46:28

So I had one, and I'm still like

Josh: 46:31

I'm breathless to hear it, honestly.

Pamela: 46:33

Okay. I had this idea of like, what if church, instead of church being like going to a building, you know, once or twice a week with and and kind of being the same rigor and role every every time, what if church was more like an AA meeting?

Josh: 46:54

Yeah.

Pamela: 46:55

You know, like what if we all came together in a dingy like somewhere,

Josh: 47:07

Yeah.

Pamela: 47:08

Or you know, a a school gym or something where we we come together as broken people,

Josh: 47:16

Right. Yeah,

Pamela: 47:17

As everyday people, as you know, you come with your full self to a group, a supportive group of people who also show up as themselves and talk through the things that you're struggling with, that you need support on, that you, you know, you're anxious about, or you know, thoughts that you have, ideas that you have vision, like all like a support group,

Josh: 47:45

Right.

Pamela: 47:45

Essentially, of people. And you know, we don't need the Bible, we don't need worship, like we don't need any of those things. We just need a group of people that we can be ourselves around and talk through the things that we are actually struggling with.

Josh: 48:02

Right.

Pamela: 48:02

I would get so much more out of having like real authentic conversations and and sitting down with people and really talking through the hard stuff.

Josh: 48:13

Right. Well, and I think so to your point, like that's I I think that's a way better use of most of our energy and time than just attending a church service with the with a consumer mentality of I'm just gonna sit here and kind of receive what this is. And what I love about a group model like that is it encourages participation that I think doesn't exist in large church large church formats. And I'm saying this with some experience because like I I have worked for churches, multiple churches. I've I have been a part of a lot of different religious practices, spiritual practice organizations. And like I can I've seen from the inside what the motivating factors are for a lot of religious bodies and and churches in general. And we live in North Texas, which is the land of the megachurch. There are massive organizations here with serious staff and serious payroll and all that. And so for me, like there there are house church formats that that follow a lot of that kind of principle where there is some sort of leadership involved, but that leadership is really just a conversation facilitator. It's not anybody who's like preparing content. Um and then in other parts of the world, that kind of that kind of model is pretty popular because a lot of folks are done with the whole sit in the pew and and just listen. They want to feel like they're a part of a community and participating in that community, and other people are doing the same. And and that's that has a huge amount of draw to me right now today. Like that I love that.

Pamela: 49:58

And too, like I understand that there are there's like the like Sunday school model, you know, where you go to the main service and then you all kind of branch off into your groups, but even in that, that's not what I'm thinking when I'm when I'm talking about this, because you can still put on a mask.

Josh: 50:17

Oh, sure. Like most people do.

Pamela: 50:19

You can't let a lot of those people know the real you.

Josh: 50:23

Right.

Pamela: 50:23

Like you can't get into some of the nitty, gritty, like hard things. And and the the hard things I'm talking about are those things that make you feel shame.

Josh: 50:32

Right. Yeah.

Pamela: 50:33

Not I'm struggling with this illness, I someone is hurting. Like, what like no, I'm talking about those things that you hide from yourself, even that you can be open with a group of people about. To me, that is church.

Josh: 50:53

Yeah.

Pamela: 50:54

That is like I am self-examining. I am, you know, I do believe in like like let's just let's just stick with Christianity. I believe in the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament, not so much the old stuff, but like I believe the intent.

Josh: 51:12

Yeah.

Pamela: 51:12

You know, and you know, I'm feeling shame around some of these things. And I and I just really do want to embody or believe in in those teachings of Jesus Christ. And I mean, to me, that would be so much more effective than going to church, you know, in these mega churches. I'm sorry, like it that is all to me personally, it's performative.

Josh: 51:38

Oh, yeah.

Pamela: 51:40

You cannot, I I can't have community with 3,000 other people,

Josh: 51:43

Right.

Pamela: 51:44

You know, and even then, and even in these like Sunday school settings, it's clicky. You know, these people are putting on a front, like when they go home, you see a completely different side of that person than what you see on uh on on church on Sunday. And and to me, that's helping no one.

Josh: 52:04

Right, right, right. And it's it's all it's really doing is encouraging the continuation of those masks. And and I think that's a huge piece of why there's been such such a shift in church attendance in the last 20 or 30 years. And and there's actually metrics showing that in in some categories it's ticking back up. But the the interesting thing is I think a lot of people had so much exposure to that that shame and that guilt that you're talking about, and they're like, I don't want this. Like, I I I don't need guilt and shame as a as a side order to my entree of hard things. Like I've already I've already got all these hard things in front of me. I already feel some level of personal guilt about them in the first place. So why would I then take these problems to people who are gonna judge me for them anyway and and let them into that part of my life? Like that's just that doesn't make any sense. And I think a lot of people moved away from church environments largely because of that shame. And and where I grew up, the the systems I grew up in were steeped in something called purity culture, which was its own version of shame and and guilt and all of that. And there's and I've spent years, years and years of my life unpacking and unlearning a lot of of what I really grabbed onto hard when I was a teenager. And yeah, I wish that was different. I I I I wish I could talk to 15-year-old me and be like, dude, you you're you really need to change course here. But at the same time, like the nice part about it at this point is I I now have the experiences and the language to offer to other people who have had experiences in those systems, who want to be separated from those systems, but don't really know how or where to start or what to do next. And so, you know, I I do think that that piece of it is is helpful. I think that by and large, we're not equipped as individuals to to really pursue those things because what we're taught from early on is oh, if you want to practice any form of spirituality, here are the systems you have to sign up for, here here are the the structures that you have to abide by and and the rules and guidelines that have to be a big part of your life. And you know, I

Pamela: 54:27

Sign this legalese.

Josh: 54:29

Right. Yeah. But there are even churches, there are there are non-denominational churches in North Texas, a big one that's not that far from my house, where if you are going to be a member of that church, you have to sign a code of ethics. I'm not kidding. And it's a church you've heard of. And like you have to basically say, Yeah, I will follow this very stringent list of of uh rules, and I will endorse this other very stringent set of beliefs. And it included in those beliefs is uh is people basically saying that they do not endorse or condone any sort of lifestyle except for a heterosexual lifestyle.

Pamela: 55:05

So you have to sign off to be performative. Like, and to me, I I'm sorry, like in the in the the situation that I described is you know almost like an AA meeting. Like I would get so much more out of being able to like be in a safe space where I can put light on the shadows, you know, in the hidden corners and the shame and the guilt, and and kind of being able to get a lot of that off my chest in a safe space with people I know that care about me and are also full of faults and guilt and shame. And like I feel like then being able to get a lot of that weight off would make me more aligned with the things that I believe Jesus wanted to focus on as most important loving our neighbors as ourselves. I can do that so much better if I can get the guilt and the shame off of my chest. But to me, what you just described is no, we need to, we need to add shadows, right? We need to add to that shame bucket. Like, and then I feel like maybe that is why we're seeing so much hypocrisy.

Josh: 56:28

Yeah. And and all these church leaders just unraveling.

Pamela: 56:31

Because people are just torn, they're like, oh, I need to do X, Y, and Z in order to, you know, be perfect and and fall in line with God and Jesus and and all like I it's just wild to me because what you just described is just the complete opposite. If anything, it is exacerbating the problem.

Josh: 56:54

Yeah. For sure.

Pamela: 56:56

But I don't know. I don't know if you want to listen to me, because my husband thinks I'm gonna be a cult leader.

Josh: 57:03

Right. This is actually just our uh intro to the indoctrination that you'll find on this podcast. We're just gonna trend towards our cult

Pamela: 57:12

Our religion called Premeditated Opinions.

Josh: 57:16

Right, yeah, we'll get that 501c3 status. We'll be unstoppable.

Pamela: 57:20

Well, that's it for Premeditated Opinions. Who's the thoughts more fully baked? And only mildly regrettable. If you enjoyed today's episode, congrats on having truly excellent taste and podcasting opinions. Following us on YouTube and Instagram is a quick and easy way to support us. So if you like literally anything about today's episode, please like and subscribe.

Josh: 57:42

Also, send this to someone who needs to feel seen, dragged, or both. We'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling. And until then, please stay hydrated and behave yourself in the comments. But if you don't, at least make us laugh.