Josh M: 0:00

In one of the maybe brave things, maybe stupider things I've done in my life, I drove to their house and I remember knocking on the door and they answered the door and uh I said, We've been trying to reach you about your car's extension. It's a true story.

Pamela: 0:35

You're listening to premeditated opinions because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway.

Josh M: 0:43

We are two people who stuck out their brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones. Each week, we unpacked anything from politics and religion to carpool dread and everything in between.

Pamela: 0:55

You know, it would really help us a lot if you followed us on Instagram and YouTube. Giving us a like and a follow is probably the best thing your thumbs will do today.

Josh M: 1:03

We are not experts. We are just way too confident in our own opinions. With all that being said, let's get started.

Pamela: 1:10

This past weekend you realized why we need ibuprofen in our 40s.

Josh M: 1:15

Oh my god. So much painkiller. Okay, so here's what happened. What happened was What happened is I helped a family member of my, well, uh really an extension of my family. I I helped them move. And I flew to Virginia um and helped get a bunch of things packed up, and then loaded a 20-foot U-Haul and a 26-foot U-Haul. And then I drove the 26-footer and somebody else drove the 20-footer from Virginia Beach to a delightful little small town in eastern Maryland, right on the coast. And then we unloaded the 26-footer. The 20-footer is uh it probably still has things in it at the time of this recording, but um we unloaded all that stuff. And okay, so here's what went down. So I actually have kind of a complicated family structure. I am an adopted child. I've known I was an adopted child from the time I was little. I I I really don't have any memory of a reveal. Like, I don't have any memory of like learning that I was adopted. I just always knew, which means they must have been talking about it from the time I was little bitty. So I was born in Boise, Idaho, but only lived there 11 days.

Pamela: 2:38

Oh my God, so many things are starting to just make sense and click together. Like, yup, yeah, that tracks.

Josh M: 2:45

Yeah. So we at 11 days old, I was flown from Boise, Idaho to Wichita, Kansas, where my adopted parents received me and uh, you know, and I grew up with them. And so um, it wasn't until my 18th birthday that some documentation was released to me that I um the uh where I had more information about my adoption, but I also found out about some details of that adoption at the time that made me think, uh, I don't think I'm gonna really pursue my biological family. Not because they're any sort of bad or toxic people. There was just enough complication within all of it to where I was like, it just seems safer for all parties involved if I just sort of keep on living the life that I have and not really pursue anything else. So one second.

Pamela: 3:36

So how did you happen upon this documentation? Was it mailed to you?

Josh M: 3:41

So it's actually my adopted dad, he had some documentation in his possession from my uh adoption proceedings, essentially, because it's a legal process.

Pamela: 3:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh M: 3:51

So there wasn't much. Like uh he didn't have much. He he had a few shreds of documentation, and I learned my biological mother's name.

Pamela: 4:02

Um wait, were like were you in contact with him?

Josh M: 4:05

My adopted dad, yeah. Your adopted dad, got it. My adopted dad, yes. My biological dad, no.

Pamela: 4:11

So he held on to this until you were 18. And then, wow, okay.

Josh M: 4:15

Well, and technically, and and you know, I this is where there is a little bit of a gap in my knowledge, in that my adoption in Idaho was what's called a closed adoption. So legally, I'm not permitted to know anything about that adoption um until I become until I turn 18. And legally, my biological family is not really supposed to know anything about my whereabouts ever. And that's how closed adoptions work. And there's actually a whole conversation for a different day about there's a lot of people, a lot of adopted kids who are pushing back against that system now and basically saying, you know, this isn't serving us and we need to reevaluate, but that's a whole different dialogue. In 2020, there's this weird thing called COVID that happened.

Pamela: 5:03

And tell me more about that.

Josh M: 5:04

Yeah, I know. Uh it's unheard of to all parties involved. But I had a lot of time on my hands, and one of the things that I did during COVID was I decided, uh, you know, be as an adopted kid, one of the things that you don't have is access to your medical history. And so for several years before that, I had been getting blood panels every six months and um, you know, just kind of staying on top of diabetes and cholesterol and things, trying to, you know, I don't have any history to work with, so I'm just gonna work with the data that I can get.

Pamela: 5:39

Yeah.

Josh M: 5:40

So Ancestry.com started a program where you could send in a DNA sample and they would test that sample for like 160 different genetic diseases, conditions, things like that. And honestly, my thought process was okay, I know this is gonna land me in some database somewhere and all that. But the trade-off was I wanted to be able to tell my kids about anything. It wasn't even for me, I swear. It wasn't in it wasn't about me at all. It was I wanted to be able to say to them, hey, keep an eye on these things because you might be a carrier because I am.

Pamela: 6:15

So I don't want to derail from your story, but I have a very similar um, I did 23andMe.

Josh M: 6:21

Yeah.

Pamela: 6:21

And had the same thought, like, okay, now I'm traceable.

Josh M: 6:25

Right.

Pamela: 6:25

Um, but my mother is adopted. And with my medical history, I had a lot of questions.

Josh M: 6:33

Of course, yeah.

Pamela: 6:34

Um and a lot of it, same thing. It was like, I I would like to know what I'm passing along if if I can figure it out.

Josh M: 6:42

So anyway, 100%. So I did the ancestry thing with zero expectations. Like I really wasn't doing it to try and find um any of my biological family. I just wanted to do this testing and be done. Well, what happened was I was matched with some of my biological family that was already on Ancestry. Oh, and it was wild. And I'm not gonna use names. Um, one of them I know is a a listener to our podcast. Um yeah, and he's awesome, and his family is delightful, and I wish I got to see them much more than I actually do. But um the I got connected with some of my biological family very unexpectedly, and it just started down this whole rabbit hole of relationships and people and and figuring out like there was this whole other side of my family that I didn't know, and and eventually I got to meet a lot of them, and you know, it it's it's been one of the richer parts of my life in in the last four years. It's it's been really amazing. Um but one of the people that I was able to get in touch with was um my biological mom, who is who I helped move. So uh again, I'm not gonna use names yet, I want to get their permission before I do that, any of that. Um but um yeah, so I went out and we've we've spent time with each other several times, and and you know, we we get along very, very, very well. I actually get along shockingly well with literally everyone that I've met from my biological family. It's wild. Um but it's it's been so much fun to sort of add these relationships to my life that have been so enriching. And um, and yeah, so I wanted to do the good son thing and go out and and help them get packed and moved and and all of it. And it turned into some real chaos, which was not their fault. Um, boy, it it was it was a disaster. Basically, they are renovating a home that's under construction, it's it's behind schedule, so they arranged for a rental property that they were gonna live in, and they were told that they could move in uh by the weekend that I was up there. And then they got a phone call while I was there saying, You can't move in yet. And so they had already put up their place in Virginia Beach for rent. So they had to get out of their place in Virginia Beach, and but they had didn't have anywhere to go. And so it then became a scramble to find storage units and hotel rooms and all of it. And it it was logistically, it was a nightmare. Not for me, I was kind of along for the ride, but for them having to figure all this out on the fly, it was torture. And so uh on top of all of that, the furniture that we were moving okay one of the things that that uh my bio mom and her husband and their family have done very well is they have they have such cool, eclectic, unique furniture. They've collected all sorts of amazing pieces that I've never I've never seen before. Like it's been so fascinating. They have a piece that is an old school ice box, like to where it has a little cabinet uh uh in the midsection where you would load a huge block of ice, and then there's a metal bin above it, and that was early refrigeration. Like, and they have one, and it's amazing. The problem is all of that vintage stuff is four times heavier than its modern counterparts.

Pamela: 10:28

Oh, yeah.

Josh M: 10:28

And so, oh my god, the the They didn't have plastic back then. No, and or particle board or like anything lightweight, apparently. Right. I could not believe how heavy some of this stuff was. It was shocking. We managed to get it done, and I had help, um, but it was a very physical uh weekend full of of some heavy lifting and a lot of ibuprofen and some alleve, and you know, like it was it went relatively well based on the circumstances they had to deal with.

Pamela: 11:09

But so wait, are they still staying in a hotel this week?

Josh M: 11:13

That's a good question. They were supposed to be able to, uh as of this recording right now, today, they are supposed to be moving in today.

Pamela: 11:21

Um, okay.

Josh M: 11:23

Which I'll follow up with because I'd like to know how that all shook out. But they definitely ended up spending more time in a hotel than they anticipated. Yeah. And it was uh that made things a lot messier. Um but the home that they're renovating is unbelievable. It's a 125-year-old property, uh, and it's just the the bones of it are gorgeous. But like I was walking around in the bottom floor of it, and they the bottom floor, almost the entire bottom floor is down to the studs. And but the studs, because of their age, are basically petrified wood now. And so they're like this dark, deep brown color. And it's just you like push on them and stuff, and everything just feels really solid and rigid and and cool. And so uh that was really neat to see. I'd never really seen a historical home like that, you know, stripped down that far. Um, but they'll they have an amazing place. It's just gonna take you know some months probably to really get to where it's livable. Because like even when I was there, they were getting news from the electrician that they're working with who came to them, and I I I won't get into like the nitty-gritty of it all because it's all very technical. But basically what he said to them is I'm gonna have to rip out every wire in this house and and start over because everything in here is a fire hazard. And so literally every wire is coming out of that house.

Pamela: 12:43

What what year did you say this was?

Josh M: 12:45

So it's uh uh I think it was built in like 1900 or 1901.

Pamela: 12:51

Okay.

Josh M: 12:51

So aluminum wiring, um, and like old school electrical systems.

Pamela: 12:56

Does it, I mean, I'm assuming it has plumbing.

Josh M: 12:58

It does, it's cast iron. Oh, okay. And so all of that has to be torn out. Um, and so they're working on that too. Um uh oh, the electrical that one of the things that they don't have is the house isn't grounded electrically. Like, so there's no ground pins on any of their electrical outlets and things like that. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's old school stuff, and so uh they're doing a tremendous amount of res renovation. It's gonna be gorgeous when it's done. Um, and they're essentially gonna have a a brand new house on the inside with a 125-year-old shell on the outside. And so you have the charm of the wraparound porch and you know, the the kind of big climbing roof lines and stuff like that. I mean, it's it's really beautiful. Um, but then the inside's gonna be 2025, you know, which is pretty amazing.

Pamela: 13:46

Yeah, that sounds like it.

Josh M: 13:48

Yeah, so it was good. It was it was a fun time. Um, it was fun sometimes. Uh like it was also a lot of work.

Pamela: 13:56

Um well, you didn't really go there just to help move. No, like you were there to like spend time and be supportive.

Josh M: 14:03

Exactly, exactly. And that's a priority to me. Like, I one of the unfortunate byproducts of me finding um my biological family and starting to engage with them is that one set of that family is 1400 miles to the east, and the other set of family is 1600 miles plus to the west. I am smack in the middle and they are on the coasts. And so that just makes it hard to to spend time and and you know, feel like you're connected. Um, you know, I've got uh some family in California. I've actually got quite a bit of of my biological families in California, and you know, they they're living some pretty cool lives out there, and and there's definitely a part of me that wishes I could be a lot more involved. And I I say that to them frequently, you know, I wish that I was more present and um well you got to spend time with them over the summer, right?

Pamela: 15:00

Or was that the East Coast family?

Josh M: 15:02

So that was East Coast still. Okay. Um so the the last time that I went out to California and hung out with that side of my family was actually New Year's of 2025. So I went out there, yeah. I went out there between Christmas and New Year's last year and ended up spending New Year's Eve there, which was a ton of fun. Um like we at one point uh I so my flight out there was pretty early in the morning. I remember I had to be at the airport like around 4 a.m. to catch like a 5 30 a.m. flight or something. And so I flew out and I've been awake all day, and then there's the time difference, so you know it they're two hours behind us. So I would get out there and you know, we're we're having New Year's Eve festivities, and there's there's plenty of plenty of party happening. And then at some point, my party decisions intersected with my fatigue, and and I was You forgot you weren't 25. Oh boy. I I was reminded in that moment. Um and man, I remember looking at uh one of my family members, and I was like, I'm gonna lay down on the couch, uh and they're like, all right. And within I have just almost no memory of actually laying down and falling asleep, but then I woke up in that same couch, fully clothed, and like it was definitely well into the next morning at this point, but I was just exhausted, but we had the best time. Um, and it's it's cool, like just to speak to the adoption of it all, like I hit the jackpot with this, and I really, I really mean that. There are horror stories galore of biological children or of children finding their biological families. It can be a disaster.

Pamela: 17:00

And I I really kind of I think they need to put a little more emphasis on that with the results that you can that you can get, because there are some wild stories of people like very innocuously do the same thing that we did, you know, and you're just trying to in your case figure out health information, but you end up, I mean, they do give you access to your DNA relatives, and um people have had some very shocking results, and they they can damage, they can cause severe damage. So I think they need to kind of, yeah, it's like cool and fun and and all of that, but there really needs to be a little bit more of an emphasis on like, hey, just keep in mind right, like these results can can um very well and and very wildly.

Josh M: 17:54

And and so honestly, that was part of my that was part of how I thought about finding my own biological family. I I I knew some of those horror stories. I had been around some other adopted kids who had made tremendous efforts to find their biological families with really mixed results. Um, everything from just the biological families all having passed away to indifference, like, why are you here? to predatory behavior, you know, begging for money and and things like that. And so I I knew all of that, and that definitely played a role in my thought processes. And so when all of this started going as well as it has, it I I I already knew how lucky I was. Like I knew that within within this dynamic, like this is going about as well as it can possibly go. And sure, there are things that you know, uh uh my biological dad died in 2010, you know. And so there are those kinds of things that you have to reckon with a little bit. Yeah. But what's been really special is is how all the other relationships have really made it sweet and made it a very awesome thing, not just for me, even for for my whole family. My my my wife and kids have gotten to be in relationship with a lot of these people, and for it to be as enriching as it is, I just I hit the absolute jackpot. And and I, you know, it honestly, this is kind of one of those rare moments where it's like, you know, I I really don't talk about this kind of stuff all that much. Not because I'm ashamed of any of it or or don't want to share it. It just isn't it's not something I think to bring up, if that makes any sense. Like I my my story just kind of is what it is, and and I'm not I don't know, I've never really thought in terms of like, oh, this is something that I should share. But I think part of the strength of letting people into this kind of thing is it normalizes it. Um because uh I've met a decent amount of adopted kids who almost hid that part of themselves. And and not that it's the only formative piece of who we are, but it is a formative piece of who we are. And and it creates some emotional baggage uh from time to time.

Pamela: 20:26

There's some things you have to to sort out and especially depending on the circumstances you grow up in.

Josh M: 20:32

Right, yeah.

Pamela: 20:33

Versus what you could have grown up in. Um, and sometimes it's not always getting away from a bad situation.

Josh M: 20:43

Right, yeah.

Pamela: 20:44

Um, so no, I I definitely so I'm curious, like your is your like dad's side of the family your West Coast family, your mom's your East, or is it exactly that? Yeah, yeah.

Josh M: 20:54

So the paternal side, the paternal side is all kind of West Coast, most of California, a little bit of Las Vegas, and then East Coast now is all Maryland. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um there's not a lot on the maternal side, like there's there's there's not a lot of people on the maternal side, there's more on the paternal side, and the paternal side's who I met first.

Pamela: 21:16

Gotcha.

Josh M: 21:16

Yeah.

Pamela: 21:17

Was anyone surprised?

Josh M: 21:19

Yeah.

Pamela: 21:20

Oh, okay, okay. I didn't know if that was gonna be like a sore spot.

Josh M: 21:24

No, not a sore spot at all. I I you know there were there were some surprised folks that I existed. And uh that was and I I hope this isn't um rubbing anyone the wrong way for me to say this, but but to me, that part of it was a little bit entertaining. Like it not, I'm not trying to cheapen a serious scenario because it certainly is a serious scenario, but at the same time, there was a part of me that was kind of like you know, like, because this is weird, and you know, we're all there's no playbook for this, you know. Exactly. Hi, you know, I um but again, like part of what made this so great was the people that I met, this this whole side of my family that I met, they just they handled it so brilliantly though. Like it was it was done with such care and such um just uh grace and you know, I I really I can't imagine it going any better than it did. And that's largely because of one individual, honestly.

Pamela: 22:33

Um and I I think that I mean he just paved the way for for so much great relationship, it's out of control, but so can I ask like how that so obviously you take this test, you get your results, and you're like, whoa, I've got you know, cousins or um, you know, whatever. So what does the communication look like from from that point?

Josh M: 22:56

Well, early on, the communication was all on Ancestry.com. I actually got a message via Ancestry that was one of my family members, and I'll never forget it as long as I live. The only thing that it the only thing that that message said was, I wonder how we're related. And because Ancestry had pained them, basically said we got a new match. Yep. And so uh that was the first message. And the truth was in that moment I didn't know the answer to that question. So there's a whole other component to this. So I have a vocalist friend who also went through the process of finding some biological family. And her circumstances were very different than mine, but she had made this contact, this woman named Rachel. Okay, Rachel lived in Florida, Rachel worked in insurance, um and she had this side hustle that was uh what she called being a genetic detective. And so she, as a hobby, would use data that she could find online and try and match people to each other or try and match people to things or dates or whatever.

Pamela: 24:03

She she was I think I found my next career.

Josh M: 24:06

Oh man, she she was remarkable. Unfortunately, um about a year and a half after I met her, she passed. Um she was young, she uh passed from cancer, and it was a it was brutal. Um, but she I was introduced to her, and within 24 hours, I'm on the phone with this stranger who is very interested in my whole situation. The ancestry connection had just happened. I mean, within days of me meeting Rachel, so the ancestry connection happens, and I meet this woman named Rachel, and Rachel asks me basically for like all of this pretty hardcore, like uh identifiable stuff. Um, and like I'm giving her my ancestry logins and all of this so she can see the deeper data. And so before I know it, and there's there's parts of my biofamily, if you're listening, you might not even know any of this, which is kind of cool for me to to fill in some gaps. But um she starts within hours of hours. I'm getting email after email after email from her saying, Oh, I just found this, oh I just unearthed this. I and she was she the information was flying at me so fast that I actually had to ask her to stop at one point because it was so much that I was like, I need a little break, I need to uh you know, just slow down just a little bit. And she immediately did, and she was very understanding and and all that, because this was a lot for me to take in.

Pamela: 25:37

And I'm so what she's doing is she's creating a bunch of draft emails and then just kind of scheduling them, you know.

Josh M: 25:43

Pretty much I'm sure she was, you know, and and uh what was really interesting though is we we would have this ongoing dialogue via text message where she would kind of send little updates here and there. And so she basically figured out a lot of very accurate information about the paternal side of my family alarmingly fast. And to the point where when I finally started meeting them and talking to them regularly, I actually already knew a lot more than what I let on to them about you know the family dynamics and and who was who, um, only because I I didn't want to seem like I had you know done some kind of weird deep dive when in reality I didn't do it, someone else did. Um, but it was it was also very helpful.

Pamela: 26:32

Really? Okay, listen, this is what actually happened. You had all this information, and then you meet these people and you're like, so what is your job? Oh, okay, you are an architect. Right, right. That was your your your double check. Exactly.

Josh M: 26:48

Yeah, I'm just back checking the situation here. Uh-huh.

Pamela: 26:50

Um wait, were you born in 84, 83?

Josh M: 26:55

Okay.

Pamela: 26:56

Okay.

Josh M: 26:56

So it was really entertaining, like to get to piece some of that together. And then um, she Rachel had a harder time with the maternal side of my family. There was there were way fewer breadcrumbs there. Um, but she ended up finding um my biological mom. And I went back and forth as to what to do. And I had already been in contact with the paternal side of my family, and that was all going really well. And there was this thing in my brain that was going, dude, you might not go two for two on this. Like everything on the paternal side's gone really brilliantly, but what if it goes way different when you're trying to reach out and meet your mom? And so um I dragged my feet on that a little bit to be honest. I waited just a little bit.

Pamela: 27:45

I mean, that's fair. Oh, and I what I realized it's uh you have a lot to process.

Josh M: 27:50

Yes, and and what I realized is even in myself, I'm a I'm an extroverted guy. I love people, I I'm in a relationship with a lot of people, like I've got good friends.

Pamela: 28:01

Um Well, this was a high-stakes relationship too. Very and you had to essentially figure out how you are going to handle a plethora of situations, yeah, and you know, and and and you, yeah, and you needed to figure out okay, if there is a rejection, right? Can I handle that?

Josh M: 28:23

Right.

Pamela: 28:24

And if I can, how do I handle that? Like so I absolutely understand like why you would hesitate and really I mean, that's a lot of self-awareness.

Josh M: 28:35

Well, and I was just trying to be, I was trying to make sure that I didn't overextend myself. And and you know, I I I was sensing in myself that I was running out of emotional bandwidth to handle some of what was happening. And so what I the other piece of that puzzle too was I was trying to do this in a way that was still that showed some respect and deference to my adopted family, who, you know, for the faults that are there, are still the people who raised me, you know. And and I I didn't want to to cheapen any of that either. This wasn't about reducing the role and responsibilities of my adopted family as much as it was about me just adding to the fold of just, hey, okay, this is all we can all coexist, but how?

Pamela: 29:23

Yeah.

Josh M: 29:24

And I had to figure that out for myself as much as anybody.

Pamela: 29:26

Like I so did you have conversations with your adopted dad around these things?

Josh M: 29:30

Like how did that my adopted mom and dad knew um barely barely soon after I made some initial contact, I started to loop them in. Um and especially my adopted dad, he to his credit, he responded with a tremendous amount of curiosity and not a single ounce of judgment or or well, yeah, because you're

Pamela: 30:00

His son.

Josh M: 30:00

Right.

Pamela: 30:01

And nothing's gonna change that.

Josh M: 30:02

No, heck no. And so I I and I wasn't trying to even imply that that was possible. I'm just now adding some folks to default. So um so yeah, I I dragged my feet for a little while in getting in touch with the maternal side of my family. And when I did, I decided to go about it a little differently. I I had a home address for her. And um So you showed up on her front door. I did. I just showed up sat in her son. I think you tried that with Jen Hatmaker at one point.

Pamela: 30:36

I did, you know, sometimes it's effective and sometimes it's a restraining order.

Josh M: 30:40

Well, man, I I just Okay, hold on.

Pamela: 30:42

I do have to clarify, I don't actually have a restraining order on me.

Josh M: 30:46

Like I feel like I keep joking about that, but I don't want anyone to actually think like no legal action has been taken against at least not that I've been made aware of. Right, yeah. Um, so when I when I I decided it was time, I wrote a letter.

Pamela: 31:02

Okay.

Josh M: 31:03

And I kept it very, very factual. I said, Hey, my name is Josh Miller. I was born, you know, July 6, 1985, in Boise, Idaho. And and uh, you know, I I have reason to believe that you might be my uh that we might be biologically related. I didn't even say parent or anything like that. And um I kept it kind of short and sweet. And you know, I was I gave some other details about my life to just try and verify identity and things like that.

Pamela: 31:32

So did you know for sure that she was your mother?

Josh M: 31:35

I I yeah. Okay, okay, which I did not reveal at the time.

Pamela: 31:40

Okay.

Josh M: 31:41

Um but i uh there would have been some chance that we were wrong, but there was almost no chance that we were wrong. Like, like the the data that Rachel had unearthed was pretty conclusive. Okay. And the one little trick up my sleeve that I had was when I sent this letter to her, I sent it via FedEx overnight envelope. Because when a FedEx envelope arrives at your door, tracking. Yeah, there's tracking, and you're gonna take it a little bit more seriously, right? Like, like if a FedEx envelope hits your porch, you're like, oh, what's this? And you pretty much open it immediately, you know it's something with some level of importance to it. And so it's great marketing. It is, yeah. This episode's sponsored by FedEx Office for all your packing and chipping needs. So I sent it to her in a FedEx overnight envelope, and and at the end of the letter, I just put, hey, if it if I'm incorrect, if if we're not related, no worries. Um, my apologies. Um, however, if you want to learn a little bit more, here's my personal email. And I just gave my email and that was that. Because I wanted to give her an out.

Pamela: 32:48

Yeah.

Josh M: 32:49

If she needed it. Because I have absolutely no idea what this person's life is right now. And I don't know if I'm lobbing a grenade into something that I don't want to lob a grenade. That's not my intention at all. So I wanted to give every opportunity for her to just light that on fire and forget about it. And I think two days after it arrived, I got an email, and the subject of the email was it's me. And it was her. And so we um we corresponded via email a little bit. This is all still during the height of COVID. Um, and so you know, we were all communicating a little differently throughout that season. Um, and so eventually we did uh a Zoom call. Um and that was kind of our first introduction. And off camera on a Zoom call, I had a very stout tequila pour. Um very stout. And it's funny that one point I kind of absent-mindedly picked it up and took a little drink out of it, and she laughed and she showed me her very stout wine glass pour that she had sent in.

Pamela: 33:56

Oh, you're like, we're definitely related.

Josh M: 33:59

Oh, it's so funny. Um, but yeah, it was uh it's been so enriching. Um, and it's something that I would love to talk more about just on this platform and and all that. I want to get some permission from folks before I start naming names because largely this is like I none of this is on social media. No, I it's not any you you can try and find these people through Facebook if you want, like through my stuff, you're not going to guess who it is. Um you know that I I've kept it all um just kind of close to the vest just to try and not overwhelm or and I'll be honest too. One of the things that that I've really worked at in this process is to make sure that uh I never cheapen my adopted family's roles and experiences and efforts and all of that. And yeah, I can't say that enough. Like it it's very important to me to to not overshadow that stuff. Um and at the same time, you know, these these connections have become some of the most enriching parts of my life.

Pamela: 35:05

Yeah.

Josh M: 35:06

And um I am excited to talk about these people.

Pamela: 35:10

I am excited for and I'm sure our Singapore subscribers are very much looking forward to hearing this. Right.

Josh M: 35:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Pamela: 35:19

So you're like you keep you keep it close to the vest, except now it's worldwide.

Josh M: 35:23

Well, right, exactly. Yeah, it's on the internet. Um, but honestly, what would be really cool, and I'm I'm literally having this idea in this moment right now, but what would be really interesting is at some point to to have a a deeper conversation about this, but to involve some of my biological family. That would be really neat. That would be awesome. Um, because there's there's quite a handful of them that I think would do very well uh it you know at something like this uh and be very entertaining. Oh that's awesome. Yeah, but it's funny, like the apple didn't fall very far from the tree. Um my bio dad was uh a hardcore musician. Oh and a wonderful instrumentalist, wonderful singer. Um and yeah, he had a lot of uh just experience and skins on the wall in that environment. Um my bio mom is also very musical.

Pamela: 36:16

Um so were your adopted parents musical?

Josh M: 36:19

My yeah, yeah, they were. They were both they neither one of them really played an instrument consistently. My dad played guitar a little bit, my mom played piano a little bit.

Pamela: 36:30

Just trying to like gauge into like the the genetic versus environmental.

Josh M: 36:36

Oh, it's yeah, and that part of it's really interesting too, because like there's things when I'm around really both sides of my family, it's funny how I'll see myself in them sometimes. Like the actions or word choice or or preferences or things like that. Like there's just things where it's like, oh, we are related. And uh there was a a moment early on. Okay, so um after the after the first round of COVID vaccines came out, I decided to travel to California and meet my paternal family. There were plenty of reasons why I waited until the vaccines came out, and I'll go into more detail on that some other time. But the I literally showed up to their house um like invited, like they knew I was coming. Like I didn't just roll up and ring the bell. Um but it was interesting, like I I remember getting on the plane to fly out there and then you know, picking up the rental car, and then I texted one of my family members and I just said, Hey, um, send me your address. I just got in the car. And for some reason, it was that moment where it all got real for me. The fear set in and the nerves set in. And I I remember texting Krista and saying, I've never wanted to hold someone's hand more in my whole life. Like I I was it all hit right then. No, and um and so I but I was like, hey, I'm here and let's do this thing. And so, in one of the maybe brave things, maybe stupider things I've done in my life, I drove to their house and I remember knocking on the door, and they answered the door, and uh I said, We've been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty. That's a true story. Yes.

Pamela: 38:30

And it's just now like the gravity of that is just now. You went through a whole DNA test and all of this. It turns out you're just a car warranty salesman.

Josh M: 38:48

Oh yeah.

Pamela: 38:49

I need a moment.

Josh M: 39:00

Okay. That's actually what I did. Yeah. Their reception of me was lovely. It was so fantastic. Um, they're so warm. And I remember sitting uh in the dining room at one point, and um there were remarks that that a few people were saying about how even some of the ways that I moved and talked were a lot like my late biodad. And so it it kind of brought to the surface some of that that you know nature versus nurture thing of you know, how strong those genetics really are and how much impact they do have, and then also how strong the environments we're brought up in are and and the impacts that those have. Anyway, all these things to say. Um, we we as as our tiny little uh you know, grassroots podcasts that we've got right now, I know that we you know, we're I'm not talking to a hundred thousand people on the other end of this microphone. However, I do want to kind of leave the door open. If you're hearing this and you're an adopted kid and you want to talk about it, I will talk about it with you. Like I the this stuff is complicated and it's weird and you don't always know how to handle it, and and there's a lot of emotional baggage that comes with you know this sort of situation, and I'm not at all saying that I have unpacked all of it because I have not, but I've unpacked enough of it to where I at least feel like I understand it and I can identify it when some of these things come up. Like there's you know, you you have to wrestle with some things when you come out of that sort of environment. But I am leaving that door open. If if if you want to talk, let's talk. You know, I'm I'm really open to that. And I yes, I've it's not lost on me that I'm not talking to just thousands of people, but still um you know, I'm happy to do that. And if you're somebody who is exploring the idea of locating your biological family or things like that, I I also will talk and I also will warn you that it can go a lot of directions, and that my experience is an outlier. Um, it mostly doesn't go this well. Um I am incredibly, incredibly, incredibly fortunate that it has gone the way it has. Yeah. So um the other lesson that I took away from this whole thing is uh when you're over the age of 35, you hire movers.

Pamela: 41:29

And wow. Yeah.

Josh M: 41:33

Wow, we just went all the way back around.

Pamela: 41:35

Wow, okay. I totally even forgot about the story.

Josh M: 41:39

It's so I've been so enthralled. Yeah, my my left knee is still sore. Um and at the time that this podcast releases, it might still be sore. Um, I don't know.

Pamela: 41:49

So, like we always tell our kids, like if they're complaining about something hurting, well, we can just cut it off.

Josh M: 41:54

Right, exactly. Yeah, at this point, amputation is an option. Yeah. I look, prosthetics have come a long way. Uh I could get some like one of the cool little blade things or something. I'm not cheapening prosthetics. I am not if you are someone who has to rely on those, I'm not making fun. I'm complimenting how freaking cool the technology is. Um, but yeah, so uh it was it was a it was a weekend of work and of community, and um it was a lot of fun sometimes, and sometimes it was a lot of work. Um but I was thrilled to be able to be present for all that stuff. I don't want to just be present for the easy stuff, you know. I I want to be around when it's tricky and hard. Um, you know, because that's that's just part of uh that's just part of um operating in community in a good way. And so um, yeah, it was I'm I am glad that they're just about done though. And I really hope that that I really hope that getting moved into their actual house, which will be a few months from now minimum, um I hope that that goes well. I I really hope that that's smooth and easy and that they hire like a ton of people because I think they're gonna need to. Your moving days are done. I'm not saying I would say no. You'll supervise. Oh, yes. I I will want a project management role. Yes, yes. Um yeah, but I I don't need uh a hands-on uh in the field kind of role. That doesn't sound like even remotely.

Pamela: 43:30

You're not gonna be putting your camos on and no, no, no, uh well I look forward to telling you all about my DNA experience. Um mine's quite a bit different. There is an adoption element to it.

Josh M: 43:45

Nice.

Pamela: 43:46

But um my and I'm not gonna get into it now, but the relatives that I found who I was looking for don't speak English.

Josh M: 43:55

Oh, interesting.

Pamela: 43:56

Yeah, so that's fascinating.

Josh M: 43:58

Yeah, I want to hear more about that.

Pamela: 44:00

Yeah.

Josh M: 44:00

Well, feel teased, everybody.

Pamela: 44:05

They do not consent.

Josh M: 44:12

All right, so um we've had a a slew of fun things that you listen.

Pamela: 44:17

I don't want to hear you bring this one up. It's gonna be my turn. Okay, you bring it up then.

Josh M: 44:21

You you bring it all the way up.

Pamela: 44:23

I'm bringing the hate. Okay, I'm bringing the excitement.

Josh M: 44:28

We'll bring it then.

Pamela: 44:29

To Louisville.

Josh M: 44:30

Yeah, yeah.

Pamela: 44:32

So we were actually just looking um this tomorrow. Uh-huh. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Oh, okay. Yeah. So tomorrow, um, my family, um, my husband and kids and Krista and Josh are going with us to Louisville. And we are so excited. Um, we are literally trying to jam just about everything you can do in Louisville in five days.

Josh M: 44:56

Yeah.

Pamela: 44:56

Yeah.

Josh M: 44:57

Yeah. It's gonna be tight, but we'll make it work.

Pamela: 45:00

And so we were literally just looking at our Southwest apps, seeing where um we fall in the line.

Josh M: 45:08

Yeah, and the boarding position.

Pamela: 45:09

Yeah, the boarding positions. And so we got 1920, 21, 22, and then Kristen and Josh are 24 and 25. Yeah. So there's somebody between us. Right. And we are bound and determined to make this person as uncomfortable as possible.

Josh M: 45:25

It's the new goal.

Pamela: 45:26

Or they're going to get adopted. I'm not sure which. Like they're they're either gonna get absorbed into our party or um if they're cool, like if they're lucky, they'll get absorbed into our party.

Josh M: 45:38

Yeah, yeah, that is freaking awesome.

Pamela: 45:39

That's fair.

Josh M: 45:40

I'm so excited about this trip. Like, and to be going with people who know their way around, who know like exactly where to go, what to do when. It makes a huge difference.

Pamela: 45:50

So we are going um because the St. James Art Fair is that weekend. Um, I because Krista is a visual artist, I was very interested in her going to this fair and just kind of seeing what it was like and seeing if maybe even in the future um we can get her, you know, a booth and get her set up.

Josh M: 46:13

Exactly. And that's where all this started because we are actively trying to get Krista into some more shows. And there are a handful of shows around the United States that really have a reputation for drawing buyers, the people who want to show up and leave with art. And this is actually one of those shows. And so when this came up, we did a bunch of research. And if memory serves me correctly, I think we were actually even looking at booking Airfare out there before we even had an answer back on whether or not she was going to be in the show because it was looking kind of promising. She did not end up getting selected for this year, but we're going to keep trying. And for anyone who's in the art scene, that's just how this goes. You have to be persistent about it and all that. But this is a great show to be in. And because we are already interested in it, and because y'all are from Louisville, we just thought, hey, we were already thinking about going out there anyway. What if we just go and attend and you know, shake some hands, meet some folks, see if we can um, you know, get in front of some people who could be influential for future years, and then who knows what happens. So um, yeah, so this is all centered around that show. And uh, if anyone wants to know more about Krista's art, you can find that at Krista MillerArt.com or Krista Miller Art on Instagram. Um, and so yeah, it I'm really excited. That's a centerpiece, but then we're also doing tons of other stuff.

Pamela: 47:31

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I didn't want to do all the touristy things. Um, we wanted to do more of like the local kind of events. So um obviously St. James Art Fair is very popular. Um, we are going to the Jim Beam distillery. Doing that tour. Doing the tour because we are fans of Basil Hayden. Um and so excited about that. Uh, we're gonna swing by Waverly Hills Sanatorium. Um, so anyone who's interested in ghost hunters and and things like that, the paranormal, right? Uh supposedly, so Louisville likes to hyperbole um a lot of their attractions, but supposedly Waverly Hills is like the most haunted place in America. Um, so we're gonna we're gonna swing by there and it it should be decorated for Halloween. So October weather can be really hit or miss. It can be warm, it can be cold, it can be comfortable. Um, this year seems to be decent. Like we're gonna have low lows in the the mid-50s, highs in the the mid-80s. So great hoodie weather, um, which is something we don't really get to experience a whole lot of here.

Josh M: 48:47

No, we got three days of it.

Pamela: 48:49

Yeah. Um, yeah, and we're just gonna hit up a couple of just like Frankfurt Avenue, uh Barstown Road. Um, and yeah, it's I'm I'm so excited. We're staying off Frankfurt Avenue, and I'm excited to show you all like Carmichael's bookstore and the wine rack and please and thank you, and all these. He's like, I don't know what you're talking about.

Josh M: 49:15

Oh no, but uh, but your enthusiasm about it makes me excited about it. Like, like that's that's all part of the fun.

Pamela: 49:20

So so it's a very fluid itinerary, but we're gonna definitely leave you guys with some memories and things to talk about when we get back here. So um, so uh we got that, and then last night, I think I know where I got listen from.

Josh M: 49:37

Where?

Pamela: 49:38

So last night, Krista and I went to a book event. Um, our beloved Jen Hatmaker just released her memoir, Awake, and she's doing a book tour. She came to Dallas. Uh, she was supposed to be there with Colleen Hoover, uh, who wrote It Ends With Us, which is now a feature film with Blake Lively. Um she wasn't able to make it, but her boyfriend, Tyler Merritt Jen Hatmaker's boyfriend.

Josh M: 50:09

Jen Hatmaker's boyfriend. Not Colleen's boyfriend.

Pamela: 50:10

Oh, well, that would have been interesting. Uh but she came out and she said listen like at least three times in the first 10 minutes.

Josh M: 50:22

Nice.

Pamela: 50:22

And I'm like, it it's it's either a her thing, it's a southern thing, it's uh it's look or listen. Or both, you know, look and listen. Um, but that was a lot of fun. Her memoir is unlike anything she's written before, but it's a very quick read, a very relevant read. So to probably not many people's surprise, it was a sea of middle-aged female white faces. Um at First United Methodist Church, um, which was gorgeous. Yeah, by the way. I walked in and saw that uh organ.

Josh M: 51:05

It's wonderful.

Pamela: 51:06

Impressive, very impressive. Um and the whole place was full.

Josh M: 51:10

Yeah.

Pamela: 51:11

I mean, even up upstairs, the balcony area. Um, and she was amazing. I mean, she what she always does. You're laughing, you're you're crying a little bit, you know, and she's speaking just straight to you. Um, so that was that was a lot of fun. Um, and then oh, Pride.

Josh M: 51:32

Yeah, a couple weekends ago.

Pamela: 51:33

Pride event that you missed.

Josh M: 51:34

Yeah, I did miss it. I I was doing cover band things. Um, in the pouring rain. That was a whole other story. But yeah, uh, you guys went to Dallas Pride. Krista's Jeep was in the parade. How did that go?

Pamela: 51:47

Uh, really well. Um, it was hot as hell.

Josh M: 51:50

Yeah.

Pamela: 51:51

Oh, it was so hot. Um, and we had all the doors off the Jeep.

Josh M: 51:56

Right.

Pamela: 51:57

And so we're sitting there, we got the trailer on, which she maneuvered magnificently.

Josh M: 52:03

Yeah.

Pamela: 52:04

Um, but we're sitting there waiting, and we had to wait for a couple of hours before we actually like the parade started and all of that. And we had the car running and the AC going, like it was, it was it was hot, but it was a blast. Um it was a good crowd, um, a lot of floats. Uh, we were kind of toward the back, but when we came around the corner, uh, our families were on the right, and the girls, well, and the and the boys too were just oh my gosh, having a blast. Yeah. And they were just covered in like glittering swag. And um, the girls later told me when we got back that they had to that they they were get given beads, the bead necklaces, and they're like, Yeah, we got 83 of them. And so like they were like separating all these beads, and I was just like, We didn't even get one. It's fine.

Josh M: 53:01

Well, yeah, no, they're gonna draw some attention and and get plenty of of presents from people because they are young and cute and all that.

Pamela: 53:09

But the Dallas police were great. I mean, you always end up with protesters and you know that that kind of stuff, and and they they kept them at bay. Yeah. Like they would escort them, you know, yeah, uh you know, uh a distance away, which was nice. Yeah, it was nice. We felt um, you know, I don't want to say this. Based on just, you know, all all the things going on in the world right now, which we're not we're not gonna go down that road, but based on on just kind of the current climate of things, it was nice to see that. Like to see them, to see the Dallas police like supporting the event and not just kind of letting whatever happen. Um but it was so much fun, it was so much excitement and enthusiasm and men and speedos, yeah. And stethoscopes, we were very, very confused. Um, but uh yeah, it was great. Um there's just nothing like a pride parade. Yeah, the I I don't I really don't know how to describe it. It it the energy, the pride. I mean, I I don't I don't know how else to say it. Like and the encouragement and you know, the compliments that were just thrown at us, like all the way down the street and camaraderie and yeah, it was it was better than I imagined, honestly. And and you know, we had talked about this was our children's first pride event, and they loved it. Yeah, they even though it was hot, yeah, even my husband said, you know, he's like, Well, before the parade started, they were kind of you know complaining about the heat. He said, But once it started, like they didn't want it to end, like, and I was like really encouraged by that.

Josh M: 55:14

Yeah. Did you did you feel like they had any follow-up questions or anything like that from the event that that were at all meaningful, helpful, anything? Not really.

Pamela: 55:24

Um, no, uh, my husband, uh, so he met up with a friend there, and so it was him and his friend and the four kids, yeah, all together.

Josh M: 55:37

Because you you are I wasn't there, so Josh, her Josh, took one for the team and um corralled the kids himself. So it he was solo parent of two of his own children and two of not his own children, and I'm very grateful to him. Thank you, dude.

Pamela: 55:52

Um, well, and luckily we have great kids, so yeah, we really do. Yeah, awesome. So he so he's standing there with the kids with his friend, and some guy just starts heckling him um about you know, what kind of uh example are you setting for your four children, you know, being in this kind of relationship or whatever. Mind you, they're not in relationship. Right. Okay, like somebody just looked at them and saw the situation and made assumptions, right? Which is the problem, which we won't go down that road right now, but he grabs a guy's hand and just holds it up and he's like, gay the prey away. And I was like, Yeah, that sounds about right.

Josh M: 56:37

I love that. Um, well, and you know, it it's it's an event that's gonna draw that kind of negative attention sometimes, and that is what it is. I I I feel very fortunate that some place as conservative as Texas is can have meaningful you know pride events and you know, for it to go off without any hitch. Um, and then for those of y'all who didn't listen to our previous episode, we actually did talk about um so Krista's involvement of the parade with her Jeep is actually uh through some friends of ours, Justin and Patrick, who run an organization called LGBT Outdoors. Um, we're actually gonna have them on as guests at some point. We're we're we need to get uh the schedules worked out with them, but we want to share more with you about what they do and um and how you can support them. But they are they're just wonderful, wonderful friends of Krista and I've so we've known them for many, many years, um, and just great humans and um doing some really cool and interesting things. And so they'll be on, but they they really wanted to borrow her Jeep to pull that float, and so and Krista, of course, said yes and wanted a sidekick, and so that's how you got involved. But um, so yeah, it was I'm thrilled that it went well. I'm thrilled that everyone went and uh you know, had uh positive experiences, not just with the the the community at large, but also just a fun hang between our kids and I mean the worst part of the day was the heat.

Pamela: 58:04

Oh yeah, yeah, you know, and other than that, like it was it was fabulous.

Josh M: 58:08

Yeah, and it was a brutally hot day. Yeah, I on one hand, I really wish that I could have been there. On another hand, I know I wouldn't have enjoyed that heat all that much, but I was also uh playing a cover band gig during a thunderstorm. So uh that that had its own its own caveats. Uh and honestly, it went it went pretty well. Um so as as a part of all things considered. All things considered, yeah. And so it was it was good. But uh I'm I'm grateful that y'all took the time to go. And I'm just grateful to to you and Josh really for helping facilitate a lot of the details and logistics and wrangling kids and all that stuff. Um that was that was a load off of Krista for sure. Um but yeah, uh we've got uh we've got a fun weekend coming up. Um and you're gonna hear lots of stories, I'm sure, um, from this weekend. Um, at least the ones that we feel good enough to tell to the internet. Uh-huh. Uh yeah, because there very well might be some that we don't feel good about telling the internet.

Pamela: 59:10

Um we get into some shenanigans.

Josh M: 59:13

Right. Yeah. And if we're gonna shenan once, you know we're gonna shenanigan. And so yeah, uh, that's how we roll. But we uh we've got a great weekend. We actually fly out uh tomorrow uh as of the time of this recording, and I've done none preparation.

Pamela: 59:29

Um we actually probably need to wrap this because same, I gotta clean the house.

Josh M: 59:35

Well, and I I think our laundry situation's okay, but you just reminded me I need to.

Pamela: 59:43

All right, yeah, let's wrap this up.

Josh M: 59:45

All right, well, it's been fun talking to y'all. Um, and we'll see you when we get back in the premeditated opinions.

Pamela: 59:56

If you enjoyed today's episode, congrats on having. Truly excellent taste and podcasting opinions. Following us on YouTube and Instagram is a quick and easy way to support us. So if you liked literally anything about today's episode, please like and subscribe.

Josh M: 1:00:13

Also, send this to someone who needs to feel seen, dragged, or both. We'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling. And until then, please stay hydrated and behave yourself in the comments. But if you don't, at least make us laugh.