SPEAKER_01: 0:00

And so we decided that we were going to give it a shot. Haven't the slightest idea what we were doing.

Josh: 0:05

Um I love you. You're exactly like me. It's like, do I know what I'm doing? Nope. I'm not gonna be able to do it anyway. Yep.

SPEAKER_06: 0:18

It's working. Yeah, it's right.

Pamela: 0:29

You're listening to premeditated opinions because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway. I'm Pamela.

Josh: 0:36

And I'm Josh, and we are two people who somehow share a brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones. Each week, we unpack anything, from politics and religion to carpool dread and everything in between.

Pamela: 0:49

You know, it would really help us a lot if you followed us on Instagram and YouTube. Giving us a like and a follow is probably the best thing your thumbs will do today.

Josh: 0:57

We are not experts. We are just way too confident in our own opinions. With all that being said, let's get started. All right, well, welcome back to another episode of Premeditated Opinions. Uh, we are thrilled to be joining to be joined today by uh two longtime dear friends of mine, uh Justin and Patrick, um, who run an organization called LGBTQ Outdoors. We're gonna talk a lot about that here in a little bit. Um, but these are just fine humans that we are thrilled to introduce you to, and uh we really hope that that you guys uh glean as much from this conversation as I have from knowing them for the many years that I have, because we met a very long time ago. Um I actually don't what year would that have been? Because that would have been we met at church, we met at Lovers Lane UMC in Dallas, and that would have been 2012. 12, I think. Wow. Yeah, something like 2012. Yeah, and that's just forever ago. Um, and so yeah, we we met there because my spouse started singing at one of the services that was there, and she was um very pleasantly surprised at this wonderful community that she was a part of and kept speaking so highly of it. And then I ended up making a professional transition myself and I ended up joining her at Lovers Lane, and that's where um that's where we all connected. And man, it was just it that that season of my life actually produced some of the greatest community of my life. Like I I I still look back on that as sort of the origin of a lot of relationships that I had. Um, and then Pamela, you had the chance to kind of jump in and meet these two fellas um at Dallas Pride.

Pamela: 2:38

Well, she meant Well, no, I met I met Patrick at your birthday.

Josh: 2:41

That's right, that's right, that's right.

Pamela: 2:42

Yeah, yeah and then I met Justin. We were doing the Dallas Pride parade. Right. We were uh with the LGBTQ outdoor float.

Josh: 2:50

Yeah, yeah, being pulled by Krista's Jeep. Yep, um which is fun and hilarious all by itself. But uh but yeah, so we we just there's been a lot of crossover. So Patrick and I work regularly together. Um and Justin I have worked off and on together, uh, him as a photographer, and then Patrick as a as a lighting designer and director for the event work that I'm involved with. And so there's just tons of sort of cross-pollination. It's hard to even know where to start. But um, I I figure a really fun place to start would be uh, so how did you two end up meeting each other? You know, how did you guys get connected and uh and how did you land at Lovers Lane UMC as well?

SPEAKER_00: 3:30

Yeah, we officially met uh for the first time at a friend's pool party. Nice. Um and so what we were hanging out, and you know, he was sitting across the table from me having a beer, and I just kept staring at him, not to be like creepy, but it was so creepy. I was like, I know you. Like we'd never met before, but like just something like connected there. Um, and I could not shake the feeling. So like at the end of the night, he's walking away, um, and I chase after him and meet him on the driveway. And he's got a mask on. I was thinking more like a little puppy coming in, right? It took a dark turn. Yeah. That's too. But like uh I uh asked for his phone number, um, which is like really, really awkward and foreign to me. Like, I'm no good at the the flirting game. Uh can confirm. Worth enough. Um, so yeah, uh it took uh a little bit, a couple months of like poking and prodding and trying to convince him to go on like an actual date with me. Um but it worked.

Josh: 4:42

Yeah, nice. Yeah, and here you are how many years later?

SPEAKER_00: 4:46

Uh about a little over 15.

Josh: 4:48

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. And uh Krista and I actually sang at y'all's wedding, yeah. Um, which was really cool. Yeah. And uh it's the first same-sex wedding we ever actually sang at. Um we've done a handful of others since, but um, that was that was a formative experience for us in a lot of ways. But um, so when did you guys how did you guys actually wind up at Lovers Lane Umc all those years ago? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01: 5:11

That's a good question. I don't know specifically. I know we went um we were checking out a couple other churches that we were a part of. His church background was very different than mine, um, in some ways, especially more currently, what we wanted, and we weren't sure what we wanted. Um, and I'm not sure how we even found out about Lover's Lane.

SPEAKER_00: 5:33

So I feel like you were doing some work um at uh the local gay church, and um one of the pastors there introduced you to the current executive pastor at Lovers Lane. Oh, okay, and y'all started talking about mission work, and then we checked out uh the modern worship service.

SPEAKER_01: 5:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:53

That's how I remember it.

SPEAKER_01: 5:56

I don't remember it, so we'll go with that. Yeah. Um, but we went and you and Krista were leading worship, um, and we just fell in love with it and the sense of community that was there, and felt like it was the right place for us at that time.

Josh: 6:11

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And and in a lot of ways, that's kind of that was that was Krista and I's experience was you know, the the community of it was really the draw. It wasn't a you know, there there was plenty about that space that that I wished was different uh in some of how they executed things and managed things and whatever, but but the people that were there were so fantastic that it just it made us want to show up. And um, and so yeah, we we started hanging out with y'all at some point. I there's no way I'm gonna remember how all that got going. Um but the I have a vivid memory of um the first time that you and I worked together, Patrick. Um it was when I was with a previous production company and we produced a uh an event for this restaurant chain. Um, and I remember having a conversation with you at one point, and you're like, yeah, I've done some lighting before at you know, previous employers and blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, hey, come do lighting. And and you did, and it was great. And and I'm sure we all look back on it now and go, boy, we've come a long way. Yes, yeah. Um, because I think I scared the crap out of you. Um and then that event too was just it was a it was a comedy of errors. I mean, we were just it wasn't being managed well, it had nothing to do with us, you and me. Um, but it it was it was not managed well, and it we were constantly putting out major fires, and it was 20 hour days, and it was brutal. Um, and I think we all walked away from that going, I don't want to do that again. Um, but we liked working together. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:48

Yeah, it was a learning opportunity.

Josh: 7:50

Boy, was it yeah, yeah. Um, but then you know, since then we've done a ton of work together. We have we have some work coming up on the books um next year, and so um, you know, there's a lot that we've done that that I'm very, very proud of. But you guys have done some really cool stuff. Um so both of you, so what I want to understand is there's maybe a a group of people who would be surprised to learn that people who uh are within the lifestyle that you guys are in now grew up in such, you know, uh outdoor-friendly environments. And and I think that's probably something that's a little bit foreign to a decent amount of people. I I'll admit that it was something I hadn't even really considered before you guys started the nonprofit that you're running now. So talk to me a little bit about just how you grew up and what your relationship was with the outdoors and and kind of how how things came online for you as far as outdoor experiences and and those sorts of pursuits.

SPEAKER_01: 8:51

Yeah, I know for me, like I grew up in the country in Missouri. So like outdoors was just life, you know. Um, but there would be times when we'd go camping and our church would go on canoe trips and just different things, and we were always active and loved outdoors, um, grew up hunting and fishing and all the things that you would in country life pretty much. Um and so I I loved that. And um after coming out in 2010, like and moving to Dallas, moved to Dallas in 2005, so it's been quite a while.

SPEAKER_02: 9:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:27

But um after going through this process of coming out, I had realized like I had not been connected to the outdoors for a while. And that's where all this started coming from, was because I wanted to be able to get connected again to the outdoors. Um, I can also pass for a cis straight guy and fit right into any outdoor group that I wanted to, but I didn't want to do that because it'd be easy for me just to fall back and hide my identity and don't want to do that, which led to starting it all.

Pamela: 9:58

That's interesting to me. I'm I'm curious to hear a little more about that because what was it about that environment that made you feel uncomfortable being yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 10:10

You live in Texas as well. Yeah. Yes, yes.

Pamela: 10:14

Um but like yeah, I mean, was it just like at the time, just still not really I mean, because obviously here we are in 2025. Yes, there are still lots of issues with you know LGBT rights and yeah, and and and perceptions and things like that. But it's obviously a lot more progressive now than it probably was back then. And and I understand that. Um, I don't know, I just I guess maybe I'm just I've been progressive for so long that I'm just kind of like, what's the problem here?

SPEAKER_01: 10:46

Like well, there there are different categories too, you could say, or levels in the outdoor world. And so you might have people that, and this is at 100% across the board by any means, obviously, but you might have people that are more into hiking and fly fishing that might be more on the progressive side, outdoors people, versus the community where I grew up in, which was a lot more hunting, fishing, a lot more conservative overall. So in my mind, the outdoors was always just more about the conservative population that was enjoying it more than the um the progressive side of it. And I grew in a church where it was very clear if you're gay, you're going to hell, you know, type of a thing.

Pamela: 11:30

So like Did you know then that I was gay?

SPEAKER_01: 11:34

Oh, I knew since I was in kindergarten. Okay. Okay, okay. Just just asking. Yeah, yeah, and I know a lot of people don't, and people are like, there's no way you can know that before. My first crush was my best friend in kindergarten. You know, it's like, yeah, I was gay. I I didn't know what uh that was called or what that was specifically then. Um, but yeah, it didn't take too long to figure things out. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: 11:59

Yeah, Patrick, do you grow up in kind of a similar outdoorsy kind of environment?

SPEAKER_00: 12:03

Not as extreme. I grew up um in Houston, so like pretty much a city boy, even though it is Texas. Um but we went whitewater rafting like quite a bit, fishing, camping, um, like constantly doing something uh in the outdoors. And um, you know, it kind of fell off my radar like as I grew up and went to school and started working. Um and um when he started talking about you know the the outdoors and the the Instagram that he started, which we'll get to in a minute, um I was like, man, I really missed that. And it's not like yes, it's it's adventure. Like we went um pack rafting in Alaska this summer, brought back like all the memories of rafting down the river, and it was amazing. Um, and and like the challenge and the adrenaline, but also um like the peace and like the quiet moments and the healing from like this gorgeous sunset. Like those are sort of these magical experiences that I can't get sitting inside watching TV or at a bar with like going on, you know, yeah, yeah. Um so it it kind of took a weird route to get there, but um being able to do this with Justin definitely got me back um in love with the outdoors.

Josh: 13:29

Yeah, yeah. So did y'all like when I was growing up, uh my dad had a couple of different just outdoorsy eras, but it never nothing ever really stuck. But the one thing that I feel like I could actually go and do with maybe the tiniest bit of success today is fishing. Like he did a ton of fishing. Um, I don't actually have a single piece of tackle or gear or a fishing rod or anything. Um, but I'm wondering, like, was are there particular genres of outdoor activities that really appeal to you now? Like, I feel like I could go out and fish and have a good time um with that. What are you guys really into at this point? Or just kind of all of it.

SPEAKER_01: 14:07

That's a great question.

Pamela: 14:09

What's one thing you look forward to when you when you're getting ready to do one of these trips?

SPEAKER_01: 14:14

There's so much, there's so much about it. Like for me, as long as I'm getting outside, I'm going to enjoy pretty much what I'm going to do. And I I've said this too, like, I'll try anything outdoors once, you know. Whatever.

Pamela: 14:24

Is there always something that you have to do when you go?

SPEAKER_01: 14:27

Oh, no.

Pamela: 14:28

No, no, not necessarily like a hike or no.

SPEAKER_01: 14:31

Yeah. If I mean my biggest things probably would be camping and fishing, um, would be two of my bigger things right now. Um, love wildlife photography as well. Um, but no, as long as I'm out there not freezing. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm gonna go see.

SPEAKER_06: 14:49

Oh yes.

Pamela: 14:50

Man, I really wish Josh was here. Yeah, the other one. Not me. Yeah. My husband is big and camping. We used to do uh, I used to call it hardcore camping, where we would just packs on our back and we would go out to Red River Gorge in Kentucky. We would hike for six miles or however long, and on these very kind of obscure trails at the time. Not many people, like there were certain books that had been written about these uh unofficial trails. So we would kind of go out on those, and then we would set up hammocks with tarps. And I remember the one time we went, it started raining, like we were hurrying, trying to get everything set up because it was getting ready to rain. But then we got to fall asleep with the rain on the tarp. And it was pitch black at night, like it I you couldn't you're doing this and just nothing. Like, I can't see my hands, I can't see anything, but I had my kindle. And that is the one thing I look forward to. I'm like, my husband likes to go out and hike and look for waterfalls. There's a lot of waterfalls in that area. Um, and so he likes to find the waterfalls and take pictures. And I'm like, you go do that, I'm gonna hang out in the hammock with my bug net and my Kindle, but with the dog and the fire, and I'm I'm set. Like, that's what I look forward to.

SPEAKER_00: 16:12

And like I'm so glad you said that because um when we talk about the outdoors, so many people think, oh, I've got to go buy like the kayak and the backpack. And like everybody experiences the outdoors differently and in varying degrees. Some people like getting up at three o'clock in the morning and go climb a 14,000 foot mountain in Colorado. Or some people, you know, will go like on a leisurely sunset stroll. Like, so whatever the outdoors kind of means to you and whatever you get out of it, like, cool, do that. That's your thing.

Josh: 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

Um, yeah. Like uh, I'm not, I recently said it out loud. Like, uh I am not the biggest fan of big hikes. I'm like, this is a lot of work. What we can share. Elevation. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. It would be probably a little bit more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:00

We had a we had a pretty challenging hike in in uh Alaska. Wow. Lots of bugs.

SPEAKER_06: 17:05

Um I noticed that on your YouTube.

SPEAKER_01: 17:10

I mean, the whole time you're just like, oh my goodness. Yeah, the flies are out of control, that's it. Oh man.

SPEAKER_06: 17:18

You needed a citronella. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:21

Like, yeah. Um, but you know, and once we got up there, like it was cool, it was beautiful, it was amazing. We took our pictures, and then like we're coming down, and and it's it's easier on the way down, usually. Um, but still that's that's a lot of effort. It is.

Josh: 17:38

You're tired, you know. So, so okay, the Justin, you kind of had the idea for well, okay. Uh, I don't even want to really set it set it up for you. I want to kind of hear the setup. So you're now running a nonprofit that's doing all these amazing trips, and you've built this great community and all this. What's that origin story? Like, where did the idea come from? How did it start and and kind of give us a little bit of just that on-ramp to how this thing even came to be?

SPEAKER_01: 18:06

Yeah, yeah. Um, so it came back to again after coming out and then wanting to reconnect with the outdoors, just figuring out how to make that happen.

SPEAKER_02: 18:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

Um, a lot of people, you know, at the time were living in Dallas, and it's like Dallas, Texas is not considered the most outdoorsy place you can be. No, it's really not.

Pamela: 18:27

That's I don't think that's why we haven't really gone anywhere because everybody's like, oh, go to Broken Bow or some somewhere like three and a half hours away. Exactly. So we're just like, can we just like is there somewhere to hike, like where we could just drive?

SPEAKER_01: 18:41

Yes, there is. Yeah, it's just it's it's not the same, it's different. But I wanted to be able to find reconnect with getting outside, whatever that looked like. Um, especially with now that I was fully accepting of who I was and what this all would look like, um, and really wanting to find people to do it with. That was kind of the big thing. And there just wasn't anything. I think at that time there was one other one other organization that was doing things in the northeast with the queer community. And other than that, I don't think that we really knew of any other opportunities. REI had some kinds of um workshops and stuff that they did and whatnot, but just wasn't the community I was really looking for. And so, and I know this isn't across the board either, but especially in in my community at the time, there's the big stereotype that gay people didn't like the outdoors. Right. And I was like, Yeah, no, we do, you know, like I know a lot of a lot of them are into the bars and shopping and concerts and all that, but it doesn't mean there isn't a big population of us that like the outdoors. Um, but I didn't know where to turn with all of this and whatnot. So ended up starting a Instagram account, which at the time was L LGBT Outdoors. And I think it wasn't too long after that, or maybe around the same time, I got the domain as well, LGBT Outdoors, for$9.99. Right. Like, how is that a thing? You know, it's it's like a$5,000 domain now.

Josh: 20:12

But yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

Um, just in case if something ever happened. But the idea was I wanted to feature other LGBTQ people on it to try to break down the stereotype that the queer community doesn't like the outdoors, and also try to inspire our community to be like, you can go do this as well and be a part of it. Um, and then it was only this was in June, which I think was an accident that it was in Pride Month of 2019. Um, and then it wasn't, but three or four months later, we started receiving these messages that I was just like, how do we handle these? Because it was like, hey, I've been looking for something like this, and I found my people, and like I want to get involved. And I'm like, it's an Instagram account, y'all. Right. Not anymore. It's not what do you think we're doing here? And so we talked more, and you know, I'm trying to figure this all out. And um at the time, I definitely did not ever want to start a nonprofit again. Um, long story, but I had one before doing work with AIDS and HIV kids in Africa, and ended up having it taken away from me because when I came out, they were like, You the board, very conservative board. It was just like gay people aren't fit to be working with kids, basically, and took it away, shut it down. So, like when you start something like that as a nonprofit, it might be your dream and your idea and your baby, but you're not the one that has ultimate control over it. Right. So I was like, I'm never doing that again. That was horrible. Yeah. So, but we're talking, and we ended up starting a website then because we had the domain. Um, and at that time it was pretty much just a blog where we had other queer people from the outdoors that liked doing things outside share from a queer person's perspective on how to do kayaking, backpacking, camping, fishing, whatever it was. And then we kept getting the messages. I found my people. I want to get involved. I want to get involved. I want to get involved. I'm like, what are we going to have them get involved with? You know, type of thing.

Pamela: 22:18

What do you think was holding them back from like what am I trying to say?

SPEAKER_00: 22:25

Representation. Yeah. Like it it's like there's not a whole lot of people out there that are like, uh, no gays in the outdoor space. They exist. They very much do. But um I'll speak for myself. Like when we grow up and we're so used to hiding ourselves, my go-to is to assume that I'm not welcomed until I get like a very clear, explicit invitation.

Pamela: 22:54

And and I'm sure there's like a safety factor. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 22:57

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when you see other queer people in the outdoors, or you know, suddenly like, hey, those are my people. How do I get involved? But because I'm being represented there deliberately.

SPEAKER_02: 23:13

Yeah.

Josh: 23:13

Yeah. And for somebody like really both of you who I mean, l calling a spade a spade, both of you are very straight passing, you know, like, and that I don't mean that as any sort of critique. That that's just the way you all choose to present yourself, and that's great. Um, and so for the two of you to feel a little bit nervous about engaging with those spaces and waiting for their representation, how much more would somebody feel that way if they prefer not to be as straight passing, if they kind of want to live into the fullness of who they are, which includes a unique aesthetic or a unique approach, whatever. Um, you know, and so yeah, I I really hear that represent representation element, and I see how important that has to be um just with all of this. And so, um, so anyway, you started getting all these messages about how do I get involved, and you're trying to figure out how can I get you involved, you know. And so what did that look like early on?

SPEAKER_01: 24:06

Early on, it was like, do I want you involved? Because I didn't know what this was turning into, you know. Yeah, nothing against about any of the people that were reaching out to me, but I was doing my photography business and everything, and you know, I didn't know if I wanted it really to be anything too much more. But because of the messages that we were receiving, we knew there's a need here that is not being met that somehow needs to be met. Totally. And so we had two people, one in uh Fort Worth, Texas, and one in Houston, that these two guys were just adamant about we're doing something with you. Like whether you won it or not. Right. And it was just like finally, after a while, it was just like, you know, we thought, what if we did an ambassador program and just people could lead events in their own communities and stuff. And so we decided that we were gonna give it a shot, not uh having the slightest idea what we were doing.

Josh: 25:04

Um this is why I love you, because you're exactly like me. It's like, do I know what I'm doing? Nope. I'm gonna do it anyway. Yep. You know, we're six years. Here we are.

SPEAKER_06: 25:16

Not a clue, but it's working. Yeah, something's working. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:20

And so, you know, those guys did their first events, and the one in Houston um was telling me about his event, and he did fishing. And now this was coming into COVID, too. So that affected my wedding photography business greatly, which gave me more time to focus on LGBT again. At the time we are now officially LGBTQ outdoors, but to focus on the organization and getting outside was one thing that we could still do in small groups. And so I think that that's one of the things why we grew so fast, honestly. But he did this fishing event and he had he had lesbian couples, he had an older guy that was married to a woman that wasn't out and didn't think he was ever going to come out. He had um just this wide variety, white, black, Hispanic people. He had some that were fly fishing, some were conventional fishing. Um, and I think there was, I think we had 10 or 12, whatever the max was that we could do outside legally in the state of Texas at the time, there. And they were underneath the bridge at one point fishing, listening to Britney Spears, of course. And he asked them, how many of you have ever gone fishing with another queer person before? And all of them said they never have done that before. Wow. And when he told me that, like we were both like pretty much crying on the phone, you know. And that's not because it's like we have a we can't go fishing with straight people, you know. Like, God forbid, you know. But it was just something that you don't hear a lot happening in our community where you're getting to enjoy something you really truly enjoy doing with a group of people that you can relate to.

SPEAKER_00: 27:02

Right. Yeah, yeah. And be like fully authentic. You don't have to censor yourself or or anything like that. Um, and that's one of the reasons why I got excited to you know start throwing ideas around with Justin is you know, he had the stereotype where queer people don't like the outdoors. My angle was um for some reason there's this idea that like queer people are um dainty or delicate or or weak. And like having thousands of queer people go on like multi-mile hikes or um like climbing mountains and everything that they do with our events, like these are some of the strongest people I've ever come across.

Josh: 27:47

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 27:48

Um, like physically, mentally, like it, they they're some badass people.

Josh: 27:54

I can say that. Yeah, we're permitting badass. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, half the lesbians I know could whip my ass. Like it's they're terrifying. You know, yeah. I love them dearly, but whoa. But no, I I hear what you're saying too, that that perception of the the daintiness, the weakness, the you know what they they're not interested in being outside. Well, that's really reductive. Yeah, you know, like because there's there are plenty of people that are like my spouse, who I love very much, um, who, you know, she really wants plumbing everywhere that she goes. And and she'll do some outdoor things, and she'll even surprise you a little bit with how she'll kind of dive into them. But then at the end of the day, she wants running water and a shower and doesn't want to go to the bathroom outside. Those are her standards. Um and she is uh, you know, I think represents some percentage of people's outdoors uh desires. But like I didn't really grow up in a super outdoorsy family. Um, they there just wasn't a lot of opportunity for me. So I came at it a lot later in life. I was probably late teens, early 20s before I really started engaging in anything like camping or or whatever. To this day, I still have done almost no hunting in my life, and and that's not for lack of of effort or desire. It's just the opportunity just haven't been there. Um, but like even for me, I and I'm a straight dude, you know, who physically, aesthetically kind of people would probably make some assumptions about you know out being a bit outdoorsy, whatever, just because of how I present myself. But I really didn't come to have an appreciation for outdoor spaces until a little bit later in life. And what I realized really quickly was how medicinal it was for me. And and how I really like even even to this day, like I we're very spoiled in that we have a travel trailer now, and so I get to utilize that. And and that's how I get my wife to go camping with me. Um, because it has a toilet and a shower.

Pamela: 29:55

Um there are no noise-canceling headphones that can replace the peace of being outside in this silence, yeah. Yeah, just that calm that just I don't, I don't there's not I don't have a way to describe it.

SPEAKER_01: 30:10

Yeah, no, but you're right. Because I know when I was coming out, I had no idea where to go find community. So I went to the gay bars, right? Which for me, I've never had a uh substance abuse issue or tendencies or anything like that. But for a lot of people, when they're coming out, you know, it's easy to go down a dark tunnel, especially like my situation, like family rejects you, church rejects you, friends reject you, you know, you don't have anybody else, and then you're trying to find yourself in um a drinking community, you know. Yeah, I'd be deep into the bottle too, man. This is a great place for people to be able to find that community in a healthy way that lowers blood pressure and gives you mental stability and just fresh air and just peace and calmness without all the the noise. So yeah, that's a whole other side of it.

SPEAKER_00: 31:03

I I I love it. I there's two sunsets that I've seen in my life that stand out so vividly. Like one was in um San Marcus. We'd gone tubing down the quad and um it was gorgeous. The other one was in um Edinburgh, Scotland. Just like you know, it was it was amazing, but like those kind of moments um, you know, going back to like uh you know spirituality and whatnot, like those are the moments that speak very, very clear and loudly to my heart. Um and like I seek that out. Like we have a nature reserve that's relatively close to our house, doesn't require a whole lot of effort. Like I can drive there, I'm there in two minutes. I can walk around the trees. I can hear a little bit of the highway going by, which sort of sucks. But um you do what you can in the city, right? Like I'll take what I can get. Yeah, but like you hear the birds and the crickets and um the wind going through the leaves. Like it's just it's so good for my soul.

Pamela: 32:10

It for me, it puts things in perspective, you know, it makes you really feel like an ant on this planet, you know, and and realizing that like even just being able to look up in the middle of nowhere and see millions of stars, and just realizing like we are just such a speck on a planet and a galaxy and and all of that, and really being able to put in perspective your problems and and things that are kind of going on in the world, and realizing that there's so much more to life than the shit we deal with every day. Yeah, so you guys had uh and you just I'm sorry, and you just can't get that anywhere else.

Josh: 32:52

Great.

SPEAKER_02: 32:53

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Josh: 32:54

So you you have this first event in Houston and you have this revelatory moment about how you know these people have never gone fishing next to another queer person. And so at that point, I'm imagining that that you're starting to see some opportunity here, like to really create experiences. So, so kind of take me through the next year or two of like how did things grow? What what were you what what did you want out of those next couple of years, and how did it actually come to pass?

SPEAKER_01: 33:21

Knowing what I wanted, uh we wanted, I think we did a no, you know, like all of this has just been this snowball effect of jumping on and riding fast and trying to figure it out as we go, which has been fun and scary and confusing and great and all the things all at once. Um, but we do we knew that because of how many people were reaching out, this was a great way. The ambassador program specifically, which we now say is the heartbeat of our organization, um is a great opportunity because it can go anywhere in the country, and we can start a chapter there with an ambassador who can get people outside and be able to have these same experiences which so many people were craving. So we started developing that more, and but we also at the same time was like this has to be something, like it can't just be this website Instagram thing, and I was like, it's gonna be a business, you know, like because of my past experience. Like there was no question about it in my mind. And as we are diving into trying to form this to have some kind of legal being here, structure of some structure. Um, more and more people were just like, it really needs to be a nonprofit. I'm just like, nope, nope. Nope. And then um uh good. Start breaking out in high breaking. Um, but no, there was a a good friend of mine, um, his name's Justin Bubenick, he's does fly fishing and just amazing guy up in Oregon, um, who is a lawyer. Um, and we were talking a lot during this time, and he is probably the one that really convinced me finally, like it really needs to be a nonprofit. So I was like, okay, so we did, and I'm like, well, we need at least three board members. So I'm like, it's me, it's you, and one other person who at the time was not even outdoorsy, good business girl, but yeah, not really outdoorsy. But I'm like, I know I can trust you. Sure. And that's the way I had her run it for a couple of years because I was just like, I gotta build that trust back before we could go farther. But we turned it into a nonprofit. Um, the chapters continue to grow. We have around 50 ambassadors right now all across the U.S., even in Alaska. Um, and they are doing events that are getting our community out there. I think so.

Pamela: 35:51

When you say 50, is it one in every state?

SPEAKER_01: 35:54

Nope, it's not. Um, we're not in every state yet. Um, some have more than others. Texas, I think we have probably about five ambassadors in Texas. Um, our biggest chapters by far are Texas, Colorado, New England. We kind of put them all into one. Um, New York, Michigan, um, are all some of our bigger ones that are just fantastic. Yeah. Um, and then we got a lot of other ones that are getting started and doing well as well, but it's a building process, especially when you're the first person in an area trying to get it started. Yeah. You know, it's a lot. But um, but yeah, it's been going great. Um, as far as the bachelor program goes. Um, um, I don't know when you want to dive into other aspects of it too, but we ended up starting outdoor uh LGBTQ outdoor fest as well. Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this came about because what 2000 2021, I think, was the first year we did it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:50

Well, we started talking 2020, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:53

We wanted to uh we started having these chapters. Well, how can we bring everybody together for a big event? So we decided to do this three-day event at a gay campground here in Texas, and we wanted to do workshops so people could get hands-on experience on new outdoor activities that they could take back. Um, we had activities that they could participate in too as well, uh, kayaking, fishing, stuff like that, because we were right on a lake. Um, and then there's the community aspect of it as well. Um and it went great. Yeah, loved it.

Pamela: 37:27

Like what was participation like?

SPEAKER_01: 37:30

Um, we had 26.

Pamela: 37:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 37:34

26, 27, like that went on that first one. All in with the staff, we were close to about 40.

SPEAKER_01: 37:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 37:42

It was the first year.

SPEAKER_01: 37:44

We would probably fight on that one, but that's okay. Yeah.

Pamela: 37:49

So give or take 26 to 40.

SPEAKER_01: 37:53

Somewhere around that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And it's grown to we are getting close to 100 this year all in. Um, and we did it this year in upstate New York, and the cat skills is beautiful. Yeah, absolutely stunning. Yeah. Um, we've started having people come international to it.

Pamela: 38:11

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01: 38:12

Um, Norway.

Pamela: 38:14

We had somebody from Do you have international ambassadors?

SPEAKER_01: 38:18

No. Nervous laughing. Because we we tried, um, and it's just was too hard with because we do release forms for everybody too. So trying to keep up with release forms in different languages and okay, laws, and everything. We would just like there would if we ever do that, we we reeled it back pretty pretty quick.

Pamela: 38:44

But um, if we ever did that, we would have to have somebody that kind of specializes in global organization to be able to figure that out because it was and I'll be honest, I don't know the rules and laws around 501c3 things like and and how and all of that complexity.

SPEAKER_01: 39:01

Yeah, so I mean we do have um I'm trying to think if we do currently do, but we've had chapters in Canada before because that's that's easy enough. Close enough. Close enough, yeah.

Pamela: 39:12

America's hat.

SPEAKER_01: 39:13

Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah, and we're excited to see it. Next year's gonna be in Colorado in September. We try to do it in September each year, and I don't think we've done it one time yet, where at the end of it people weren't coming up to us crying, being like this was the most amazing thing, and didn't realize what they were getting into, thinking, Oh, this is gonna be a fun thing to do. And then it really greatly impacts their life in a deep way.

SPEAKER_00: 39:46

That was such a surprise to me. Like on our first one, I thought we were just setting up some workshops, get some education, you know, try out some archery before you have to go buy the gear, or just you know, whatever. But there was like I I've coined the term outdoor fest magic, but like there's something that happens um when this community comes together and like it you feel safe and and you can just be you. Yes you can be the you that you can't always be when you're in public. And there's just this instant sort of family vibe. And there there's this depth and it it's really really really beautiful. These people from like you know the the the queer world is very much a spectrum in like identity and hair color and height and just like all the things you know which very much mimics how nature is by the way and we're just all together.

SPEAKER_02: 40:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:53

And everybody gets to be weird together and like it's just freaking amazing. Yeah.

Pamela: 41:00

I mean that's why there's so many letters and LGBT it's not a monolith. Like it's not a it's you know an archetype. Like it's it's a very it's a big group of people. However I hear you and I wish more people could see that magic you're talking about because I experienced that in like around 2018 uh when the free mom hugs thing was starting to come out um with the pride parades and the pride festivals and so that that year in Louisville I participated and that was life changing. That was life I mean it was a couple hours out of my day and a t-shirt right and I came back home with just overwhelmed emotions and and people being excited and and I've mentioned this before I'm not a hugger but I was like hugging everybody and I mean I had so much of other people's glitter and sweat and all the things on me but I loved it and and just I there were people you know it's kind of like you know for fun just giving hugs and all that and then you have people who would not let go and they would tell me their stories of you know I haven't hugged my mom in decades. You know and these were adults some of these were child children teenagers and things like that who were just alone and and it was like I just wish sometimes that people could see and experience that and and really understand that when it comes to like legislation for things like especially the stuff going on in Arlington that is impactful and people just don't understand what that does. When you add those things to a community andor when you take those things away from a community. Like I I I'll be honest I probably would have never seen it if I hadn't experienced it myself. But we need more people to see like this is the devastation that is being caused you know and that we need to be more inclusive and have more of these organizations and things where you know maybe somebody on the outside doesn't understand why outdoors is such an important aspect for certain communities but when you're in within those that's when you really see kind of you know what's going on.

SPEAKER_01: 43:26

And education is such a huge part of that because I always say I don't know what I don't know you know and that is so much with the straight community that hasn't ever been involved with the queer community. You mentioned with what was going on in Arlington where it's now basically legal to discriminate um and I was reading through some of the comments which don't do that. No as a cesspool man I was reading through the comments and this one person was like good because they need to be treated just like everybody else and I'm like no you don't understand. We need this law so we are treated like everybody else. Right. So that's messed up when you have to have laws so that we can have equal rights. Right.

Pamela: 44:07

And people just don't understand and a lot of it's ignorance like you said you know there needs to be education some of it is will for willful ignorance right I just wish people took the time to understand.

Josh: 44:21

Yeah. Well and and we're open-minded enough to accept that maybe they don't know everything about how the world works you know I before I was at the church where we all met I didn't have a lot of exposure to the queer community at all. Like I I didn't grow up I grew up in a very conservative environment a very hyper evangelical Christian space and I was in many ways protected from I was shielded from anything that wasn't heterosexual because that was uh dangerous is how it was couched to me was this is this is not okay. And I remember you know engaging with some of the community at that church for the first time and and first of all I the irony wasn't lost on me that I was having my exposure to this community through a church. Like that that that was not something I ever expected to happen. But but I mean you guys know this already but just for the benefit of any anyone else listening like that was those were incredibly formative times for me because it disrupted a lot of my assumptions about who the queer community was and how it operated and whether or not you know whether or not it was actually as dangerous as I was told and and whatever. And so the to your point about exposure and people just being alongside that community and understanding it better that that was what had to happen for me. Like I I had to have that experience for myself and go, oh wait a minute everything I was taught about this is wrong. Everything that I thought I understood about this community is incorrect. And the more exposure I have the more relationships I build the the more time I invest the more I'm like wow this is actually some place where like as a straight person like I see the need for the queer community to have people like me as advocates and things like that. But also that sense of advocacy has to be driven by the real needs of that queer community not what I think those needs are. And so for me that it took a long time for me to sort of unravel a lot of very bad uh education that I had had and and sort of or lack of education or lack of education. And and it was really just years and years of of soul searching and conversations and relationships and things like that.

Pamela: 46:44

And so you know now at this phase of my life like I I can't imagine operating without a a healthy affection um for my non-hetero community because man it just makes everything better it's more fun it blows my mind how demonized the community is because I'm like y'all never been to gay bar you've never been to a pride parade you've never been to an LGBTQ event like it is a blast the music is amazing the people are amazing it's so much fun when when when the queer community can be themselves yeah oh my gosh like it is so much fun. It is so much fun and I'm like y'all missing out like y'all stay mad behind Facebook like we're gonna go have fun.

Josh: 47:37

Right well and and I don't for me like there was a I I I like to joke about this I say this this with tremendous affection but it I love to joke that like man there is nothing in the world more productive than two motivated lesbians like it is it is unbelievable what what what they can accommodate we don't have representation here for that oh I know with love and affection to that group I know but but anyway all that to say like you know it it's it's interesting to think about um the the community that you guys are building and and I'm wondering like what are some things that what's a couple of like real world examples of times where you've been surprised by your community the community that's been built by LGBTQ outdoors and you know what are some sort of uh experiences that stand out to you it's like man you know I really wasn't expecting that at this event but what what are some things that have happened or the things that would not have happened if you hadn't pursued that's a great way to catch it too so uh I got one um we are a hundred percent not a dating service that is not the point here just like LinkedIn right yeah apparently people are meeting on LinkedIn now yeah right today I learned this sounds a lot more fun than that but it is totally not the point of what we do but um there is a lesbian couple who met at one of our outdoor fest events um who recently got married this year um awesome so uh I mean would they have found each other in life with you know fate later on maybe who knows I hope so yeah but I'll it's just a catalyst yeah there's there's a number too that are couples that are dating and then outside of that like c people that have just found like hiking buddies and sure adventure partners and stuff like that and I'll see on Facebook sometimes somebody will be going to some part of the country that they knew that someone that they went on an adventure trip with is now in that area and they all get together and meet up and I'm just like okay this is this is really cool.

SPEAKER_01: 49:42

There's tons of those stories I um outdoor fest last year 2024 yeah Colorado um we were doing some interviews and stuff and um there's this one guy that we were interviewing to be able to use for video and he's trans lives in Colorado and he was just like I've never really felt proud of who I was or been able to find my people before but this event let me feel like I am now proud and I have found my people and I'm just like if if everything that we did was just for that one person worth it. Right totally but to think about all the people that have been impacted by it.

SPEAKER_00: 50:28

There's a guy who has come to two of our outdoor fests now um he learned about us through our our podcast um and like he doesn't have people in in his area that he can hang out with. So like we were it and so I four years or sorry four days out of the year you know he has a place where he can come and be like himself and um he's coming I think this next year to do he has a great hobby.

SPEAKER_01: 51:00

Because there's just just no way we can keep up with everything that's going on now. So there's a lot that sometimes I I don't know what's going on or what not you show up and you're like well okay awesome great I didn't have to worry about that or put it together because we've grown into a team of how many that run the ambassador program? Um there's a total of six that just run that program. But it's all because some of them are volunteers some of them are very part-time right um so that's why there's so many of them but it's an amazing group and then we have a whole community that takes care of LGBTQ outdoor fest as well. And we're training our board from an advisory board into a working board. So I'm getting really excited because that's going to take more off of my plate.

Pamela: 51:48

So so ignorant here what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01: 51:52

So before our board basically were people that get to be on the board and be like yeah this is good this isn't let's do this let's not do that. Now we're going to be having like um a uh a director of technology who's gonna be taking care of all of our like um data as you know and uh workflows and uh CRMs just all of that kind of stuff. She needs a volunteer we're going to have we're going to have somebody that is our communications director um we're gonna have somebody that is a fundraising and developing director on our nice okay um and then they're gonna have teams of volunteers underneath them too to pass off. But the funny thing about this all funny not funny kind of thing is like so often people are just like this is a Facebook group why do you need so many people like why do you need money? I'm like it's so not but that's the thing they don't a lot we're trying to educate and that's one reason why communication structure is going to help us get this mess messaging out more but people just don't realize that we're a national nonprofit that takes a lot of money and a lot of people to be able to make this all happen and it's not just one little meetup group type of thing. Yeah for sure can we talk about how you guys are funded yeah yeah so so how are you funded right poorly poorly poorly that's a good answer um so it was funny when we started couch change like hey we're searching your couch before we leave like uh good luck um so when we started it was I was blown away companies would come to us and be like we have this grant we want to give you we have a foundation we want to give you money for we have product we wow you know it was we we were something different that people wanted to be a part of and because of that we never really well intentioned yeah I believe okay okay okay absolutely that it was it was easy to get the money easy to get the money um and we weren't charging anything for any of our events or really pushing donations hard or anything like that because we were able to pretty much fund what we were doing at the time with the money that was coming in from corporate donors. Nice yeah until 2026 uh 2025 hits um and in the the beginning of the year we start hearing whispers about DEI programs and DEI giving be enrolled back and we're like is this going to affect us you know hopefully not spoiler alert spoiler alert it did each quarter that we went by it just became a more of a oh shit oh shit oh shit type of a situation to honestly right now we're we're kind of hanging on by our fingernails really and we're trying to turn this ship of relying on corporate donors which those that are partners with us are amazing and credible and we love them and so thankful for them but we also need our community to step up and join us too so we started a membership campaign called the Trailblazer Society. Oh yeah people get some cool perks on whatever level they sign up on um smart and that's what we are really focusing on now because to become fully sustainable where we need to be and to be able to pay the staff and everything it takes to run this we need our community to be able to step up and and everybody if everybody does a little bit then it goes a long way.

Josh: 55:17

Yeah no that's huge. So um do you see any light at the end of that tunnel as far as you know any sort of a corporate involvement or at this point are you sort of letting that piece of it go and and choosing to move forward relying on more of the Trailblazer program.

SPEAKER_01: 55:33

No we definitely want our corporate partnerships as well. I've had a couple close people in the organization that have really helped us encourage me and like this is some things that we can do such as turning the board into a working board and some things like that that is going to make things a lot better for us in the long run. But I do think the overall secret to us being sustainable long term is those that are active with us giving yeah so like we sh sh I'm I'm sorry I was like which shouldn't be a tough ask because they've already um experienced the benefits right of the organization in a way that you know so far guys you know we've been able to to do all of these things and have all of these events and and look at how much this has enriched your your lives and your communities and all of those things and now it's like now we need your help because of the world's changed you would think that that that would be easy but what we get a lot of pushback on is I'm just going on a hike why do we need to give money if I'm just going on a hike and they're not it it's and it's on us and we're working on changing it but the the education of what it is taking to run a nonprofit like this I mean we have what eight different problems work on that.

SPEAKER_00: 57:01

Yeah we have like eight different programs that we use just to run our organization you know that that's monthly fees for you know um and so that's just one tiny aspect of all of it let alone the accountant and lawyers and everything that we need yeah yeah yeah to actually just keep it running so kind of going but taking a step back from that a little bit um what what kind of stands out to you uh as sort of a a favorite trip or favorite destination like if you had to pick any one of those that that just I don't know what blew you away that's really hard um I have all of them um I have two but both for drastically different reasons um one of them was a very very early event we'd had in uh the North Texas area in the middle of COVID um but we rented kayaks and went out on White Rock Lake sounds and like we weren't sure how many people to expect and like I think more showed up than uh what we were expecting but it was so pile into the kayak just one because like we had already been like really isolated um yeah but being in a kayak you're still kind of social distance oh yeah um yeah but yeah you can still be around each other and there are people out there never kayaked before um there was a guy who did stand up paddle board who had never done it before um and just so crazy successful um my own personal favorite event uh I mentioned it earlier we went pack rafting on one of our adventure trips um in Alaska this summer and it was a lot of work and um it was cold but holy cow that was a blast yeah and getting to go to Alaska for the first time and the fact that the sun stayed up in the summer to like 11 o'clock was really really disorienting. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 59:01

But just getting to go and do that um again with some amazing people with my husband um just unbelievable yeah absolutely unbelievable yeah what about you yeah that is such a tough question um I mean I think always the the latest LGBTQ outdoor fest that happens is my kind of my new favorite one. So right now just New York when we were up there and I had never even been to New York um so it was it was just incredible. The Casagills were beautiful okay we were right on this amazing campground um that had these beautiful lakes and just the mountains and everybody coming in from all over and just having this incredible group together just the trees were just starting to change color so the best is a bucket list which it's funny because somebody recently was like so the trees really hadn't changed Changed then yet, had they? And I was like, um about to more color than what we get here in Texas. Right. Yes. We're just now getting color change, which is yeah, which is late December. Yeah.

Pamela: 1:00:10

Um were you near Niagara?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:12

We weren't not that far north. Oh, okay, okay.

Pamela: 1:00:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:16

Um yeah, I don't know. Alaska would probably be really high up there. I've done, we did the first trip um up there last year, 2024. And we kind of struggled. There was this first year of actually trying adventure trips, and we did one to Alaska and one to Big Band. Um neither of them filled up, and uh Alaska we barely scraped by to be able to get enough people to go. I think there was a total of six of us, including myself, um, and had an incredible time. Yeah, and we proved the had a proof of concept now. The board was on board with it, and let's try it next year and see how it goes. And all of the trips that we did this year filled up, um, including Alaska. We had 18, yeah, I think. That's a big jump. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 18 that went to Alaska and it was amazing. We split it up with two main focuses, one with um pack rafting, which is amazing. Um first year we roll these pack rafts up and hike way out, like you were describing earlier, way out. And we'll camp one night, then we jump on the river and pack raft it out the next day. It's amazing. Um, the water was cold, but the weather was beautiful. Like it was beautiful, like highs in the 60s, like coming from July in Texas to that. Like I was fine with it. Yeah. And then uh hiking, so they could kind of choose which um choose your adventure type of a thing with it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:48

But it was the packcrafting part. Um, just to throw it out there, we were guided by two highly certified, highly trained packcrafting instructors.

Pamela: 1:01:58

Oh, y'all weren't just raw dogging it?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:00

No, we were getting huge rapids either. We were like class one.

Pamela: 1:02:05

You weren't Christopher McKay listening it?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:08

No.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:09

Yeah, not that extreme.

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:11

Um, like uh sleeping in a in a bus in the middle of nowhere. That'd be fun. Not that no, no.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:19

No, um uh all of our adventure trips uh we we focus really on bringing in like somebody who's an expert in like the field and whatever. Well, I'm sure safety and things like that. Yeah, yeah, like and we don't take that lightly. Um, you know, they went up to Glacier National Park and had um a tour guide collective um that just told them everything.

Josh: 1:02:43

Um so uh you know, with anything like this, when you're sort of creating community and s and you know being pioneers, um, which y'all in in every sense of the word are being pioneers, um there's always it it's fun to look at the the impact that you're having on the community that you're serving, but I always like asking the question of like, how has this made you different? Like, how is starting all of this and and running these trips and meeting these people and being a part of this community, how's it changed you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:19

We were just down in San Antonio for a big um event called the Running Event. We were invited to be a partner with them where all these um outdoor retailers came in and I had the opportunity to speak to them, and they asked me to speak on belonging in the retail setting. Um for me, belonging uh took on a huge change when I had a conversation with my mom, um, which very rarely she none of my family likes to talk about me being gay. I just don't. Like we are not talking about that, you know, type of a thing. But one time after coming out, um like I wanted her to really understand the struggle that I had. And I thought maybe if she would understand a little bit about what it's been like my whole life and how close I was to checking out, she might have this aha moment. And instead, in sharing that, she her response was, well, it might have been easier to have a kid that committed suicide than to have a gay kid. And so I was like, Oh, that's so disappointing. That's where we're at right now. Um and so that started to change a whole perspective of belonging to me. Yeah, um and um that's what this community does, it lets people belong. It's you know, it is not easy, it is not easy running this organization and building something.

Pamela: 1:04:48

Um I literally still can't breathe. As a parent, uh I Right.

Josh: 1:04:55

I just can't imagine a situation in which I would say that to my kid.

Pamela: 1:04:58

Oh, I like it Yeah, yeah, it's terrible, it's so disheartening. Yeah, and it is so painful, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:05

And there's things that through my journey I haven't always understood in our own community. Um, but I knew that I didn't want to be like her. And so I always approached everything that I could do as open-minded as I could to make everybody feel like they belong. Yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:22

So that was really like trigger warning.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:27

Sorry. Woo! Okay. But yeah, so I I think that that would be for me like the biggest thing is just the sense of belonging that yeah, this this provides people. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:40

Like uh along those lines, one of the things that I've discovered for myself, and this is really kind of how I approach the organization, is that like we are a community builder wrapped in the outdoors, like wrapping paper. Um like we get people together to to do random activity outdoors. Um, but what we've become really good at and like we've seen the results from are just people connecting. Um and we hear those stories from people who have had um rough childhood or difficult relationships with their parents, um, or or or whatever the situation may be. Um and also uh the the diversity within our own community. You know, I kinda kinda touched on it earlier, like it really mimics for me like the nature and like how colorful and vibrant and um just different, but how it all works together um in like this beautiful, glorious way. And um so getting to see that part of our community, which is why like a year or two ago we went from LGBT outdoors to LGBTQ outdoors, um, like when the world is pretty determined to you know exclude we're doubling down. How how can we make it even more clear that everybody in the queer community? Um and so adding that cue into our name into all of our logos and our legal filings, and it it was a lot, but um if it helps one more person be seen or feel welcome, um, then it's absolutely worth it.

Josh: 1:07:36

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the hard reality is, and and you know, we we we are not a podcast with with a massive listener base. However, we are a podcast with, I think, a somewhat influential uh uh listener base. And certainly there's there's there there are those that I would have absolutely zero problem um challenging to be a to help provide resources for the work that you guys are doing. And so what I would love is to in as clear a way as you can um help people understand how they could financially contribute to what you're doing. And and I I do mean specifically financially. Um I mean, I know contributing time is helpful. I know that volunteer hours are helpful and all that stuff. And I feel like you have the pools of people to draw from for those things. And so I want to directly challenge the the listeners that we do get to talk to. And we did just recently break a thousand subscribers on YouTube, like so we're we're not that's all her. I have had nothing to do with it. No easy. Yeah, yeah, that's that's all her. Um, and we're also active on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and things like that. But YouTube has has been a real growth engine for us in a way that has really surprised me. And so, with just zero hesitation and no apologies whatsoever, I would love to challenge our listener base to be a part of the solution um to what you guys are facing because yeah, the the lack of DEI initiatives has a trickle-down effect and it impacts things exactly like you. And, you know, we have sat here and heard story after story after story of of how you are impacting the the community you're a part of and changing individual lives within that community. And I can't think of anything more worthy of charitable giving than that. And so, and it's it's also not lost on me that this episode is going to be released right before the end of the 2025 calendar year. And so if you're looking, listener, for um a an opportunity for a tax deductible, a fully tax-deductible uh financial contribution, um, I would challenge you directly um to to be a uh a part of the solution for LGBTQ outdoors. So, all that being said, how do people engage with you in that way?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:47

Yeah, there's a few different ways. So if one, if you are a a company or a business that is interested in partnering with us and being a uh a partner, I'd love to be able to meet with them, talk to them, and we have um uh a sponsorship deck. I'm happy to get to them and they can go over it and we can we can talk about specific levels and and all of that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:08

Um if individuals are out there and they've got the money for that and they want to do that, great, bring it on as well. Um, we have a GoFundMe that's going on right now that we launched as an end-of-the-year campaign that's probably gonna go through February. Um, that is really helping us try to get by right now. We could really use help with this GoFundMe. Um, it's easy to find if you if you just search GoFundMe and LGBTQ outdoors, it's it will pop up. Um, so that's a great way.

Pamela: 1:10:35

Um I straight Vimmo'd you. Yeah, yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:39

Yes, which works as well. Yeah. Well is uh is our Vimbo just LGBTQ outdoors, I think, as well.

Pamela: 1:10:46

And I'll link all of this in the show notes so people will be very easy to find. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:55

If people um if people want to become a monthly donor and become a member, just go to our website, lgbdqoutdoors.com. Right on the top, there's a little become a member, and you can see different levels that you can become a monthly donor with as well. Some fun little perks in there as well. Um yeah.

Pamela: 1:11:12

Because it's not about so much getting outside and it's it's like you mentioned belonging. It is that sense of belonging. If you've ever not had that, like you just don't know what that feels like. So this is cultivating those those areas and those spaces in which you guys have created that build that sense of belonging for people where they can't find it anywhere else.

Josh: 1:11:36

Yeah, I can't think of anything more worthy of of existence, you know. And and the uh I I've joked often, you know, that it's it's hard to make friends when you're a grown-up anyway. Um, it's just tricky, it's weird and and you know, it does feel like dating almost, you know. Can I have your phone number? You know, you just you've it it's it's awkward and and you know, yeah. I don't know why it's that way, but it is that way. And so not only are you guys creating an opportunity for just freaking people to meet, but also for people that are are experiencing life through similar lenses, you know. And you know, and I I have such affection and respect for what you guys are doing. And I've joked with both of you often that you know, let me know when you got the straight ally program that I can come and hang out. I got a travel trailer, like we can use it as a kitchen or whatever. Like, um, you know, but I know we're getting serious FOMO. Like it sounds like fun. I want to go. Yeah, no, we we certainly can.

Pamela: 1:12:41

But like if it is sacred, you know, for you guys to keep it within that community, I absolutely understand that, but I'm not I'm not gonna lie and say it doesn't sound like a ton of fun.

Josh: 1:12:51

I don't want to go camping with a bunch of gays.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:53

That's sign me all the way up. I'll say this under the I'll say this under the radar. Um the more that we've learned about what we're doing, we we do want everybody to feel inclusive. And so we don't want to exclude anybody. So we aren't turning people away. Right.

Pamela: 1:13:10

But you're not gonna be and act a fool and and you're being chaperoned by a queer person.

Josh: 1:13:22

You have to have a chaperone queer. I mean that works, but we do love to be sponsored by one, yes. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:34

We do love our allies, though, like for real. That that's one of the greatest gifts I think some of us can have is just knowing that, oh, there are straight people out there that are cool with us, you know.

Josh: 1:13:44

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And and and you know, uh, I think that the one of the things that I have personally felt a responsibility to do uh, especially in the last few years, is to be more outspoken uh about allyship because what I've realized is that it it in this weird sort of way, it's representation. It's like what you were talking about. Like once I have stepped out and said some of these things more publicly, I've seen other people in my own community be like, oh yeah, I totally I'm uh I know there's so many more out there than you realize.

Pamela: 1:14:16

Yeah. But they're just they're just not outspoken about it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:19

Yeah, I'm afraid to say something about it as well.

Pamela: 1:14:22

Well, not not even that. I think maybe it's just a fact a matter of like they're just not connected to it, but they don't necessarily have like hard lines one way or the other with it. It's just kind of a they're more accepting than maybe we realize.

Josh: 1:14:36

I mean, yeah. But well, if you are a queer person listening to this, um, we certainly encourage you to just jump on a Google LGBTQ outdoors. Um, and you are welcome at this podcast too, and you're welcome at their podcast. Um and uh and you should totally go to some of their events and um experience all that they have to offer. Um, gents, I'm just so proud of you. Um and I love what y'all are doing. And um, you know, I I I love seeing an idea that was crafted so organically become something that is so impactful um with all of the the community that that needs that impact in such a real way. And so um I really hope for all of our sakes that we uh end up with, you know, maybe some social shifts and some political shifts in in in the future that allow for something like y'all to be more successful, yes, but also um more broadly accepted, um, you know, in whatever sense that means. So um is there anything that we have not covered that you want to make sure that people know and understand about LGBTQ outdoors?

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:42

I don't think so. I will say that registration for LGBTQ Outdoor Fest is open right now. So if people are interested in learning more of that about that, we are um still building our instructors, so we don't have all that lined up yet, and that's why there is an early bird discount going on right now.

Josh: 1:16:01

So, what is the gay agenda, by the way? Is there is there a gay agenda?

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:06

Now time and puppies, yeah.

Josh: 1:16:08

Yeah, I heard something about golden girls once. There might be something about girls. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:15

But that people can sign up for a newsletter off of our website and follow us on Instagram, LGBTQ outdoors. Um would love to get connected. Awesome.

Josh: 1:16:23

Well, thank you so much, dudes. Um, it's it's been a joy and a pleasure. And um, yeah, I I meant every word of what I said to every person listening to this. Um, please, please, please, if it's 10 bucks, 20 bucks, um, if you're looking for a sizable end-of-year donation, um, I can't think of a better place to park your money um than LGBDQ outdoors. So please, let's embarrass them um with some success in a time that has been rocky. Um, and so uh anyway, thank you so much for joining us at Premeditated Opinions. Uh, we are thrilled to have been in your ear holes this week. We hope that you enjoyed us in there. And uh yeah, we'll be back next Tuesday with more stuff that won't we'll try and make as good as this.

Pamela: 1:17:06

Don't hold your breath.

Josh: 1:17:07

Right.

Pamela: 1:17:09

Well, that's it for premeditated opinions, where the thoughts were fully baked and only mildly regrettable. If you enjoyed today's episode, congrats on having truly excellent taste and podcasting opinions. Following us on YouTube and Instagram is a quick and easy way to support us. So if you liked literally anything about today's episode, please like and subscribe.

Josh: 1:17:32

Also, send this to someone who needs to feel seen, dragged, or both. We'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling. And until then, please stay hydrated and behave yourself in the comments. But if you don't, at least make us laugh.