Pamela 0:00

So in my mind, you came to this conclusion because you were in a cover fan gig singing Beyonce's All the Single Ladies. And you managed to facilitate that experience without actually identifying with being a single lady.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Or Beyonce, for that matter.

Pamela 0:31

You're listening to premeditated opinions because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway. I'm Pamela.

Josh 0:38

And I'm Josh. And we are two people who somehow share a brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones. Each week, we unpack anything, from politics and religion to carpool dread and everything in between.

Pamela 0:51

You know, it would really help us a lot if you followed us on Instagram and YouTube. Giving us a like and a follow is probably the best thing your thumbs will do today.

Josh 0:59

We are not experts. We are just way too confident in our own opinions. With all that being said, let's get started. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. And we have a guest with us.

Pamela 1:11

We do?

Josh 1:12

I mean, you can see her too, right? I haven't adjusted my medication in a while. So I guess there's a chance that it's a figment of my imagination.

Pamela 1:25

Okay, we can start that work.

Josh 1:26

No, I thought that was funny. I like that. Oh, so yeah, no, we we we have a special guest with us, uh, one, Krista Miller, um, who has graced us with her presence in a previous episode, and she's joining us again today um because she brings some unique perspective and uh experience to kind of what we're what we're spending some time on today. But since last time, uh we have been in your ear holes, um the two ladies sitting at this table with me have attended an event. And and we wanted to kind of start off by explaining a little bit a little bit about that event. And um they are going to be sharing a microphone today, so you're just gonna have to roll with us with that.

Pamela 2:09

Um because this was sort of a last-minute decision, and it was just like all of our decisions are with this podcast.

Josh 2:17

Yeah, it turns out that we're making decisions in exactly the same way we always hey, why don't we talk about this?

Pamela 2:21

Oh, do you want to join us in 90 minutes?

Josh 2:24

Right. Yeah. Maybe we should go like change out of pajamas. But anyway. Shower. Yeah, whatever. It's fine. Um, we wanted to spend some time today on something that we actually have had a lot of conversation about as the three of us and even the four of us with Pamela's Josh. Um and uh, you know, we we have throughout the course of this podcast, we have talked about spiritual things and religious things, and we had a conversation with uh a good friend and listener to the podcast who said something to Pamela and I that kind of made us realize that maybe we need to provide some clarity on some of the things. Yeah, some context, yeah, yeah. Yeah. This is how we think about spirituality and religion and things like that. And so um, yeah, so that is what we're doing. And I wanted to start off there was an event that Krista and Pamela attended um a couple of nights ago that is really just a perfect tee up for this whole thing. So let's start there. So tell us a little bit about the event that you went to a couple of nights ago and uh who was there and and all of that, and and we'll that's how we'll get started.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

Sure. Okay, so um there's this lovely, beautiful human named Hillary McBride. And yes, Dr. Hillary McBride. Dr. Hillary McBride. She recently came out with a book called Holy Hurt, and she um is basically doing a book tour um for this book. Now she's also written and published, I think, four other books, four or five other books prior. Um, but this one specifically was on um trauma, um, religious trauma, uh, trauma within the church that people experience, and um, you know, recognizing that, moving through it, how to, you know, move forward. Um, and so I haven't personally read the book yet. I have it signed by her, which is exciting. Um, but that is next on my docket. So she had a guest speaker named uh Joshua Harris, and that name may be triggering for some people because Joshua Harris also wrote uh a few books um years ago. Um one very well known was I Kiss Dating Goodbye. Um and it was a very hyper-conservative evangelical leaning book. Um in basically it was it was in the purity culture era. Um and it hurt a lot of people. Um and she invited him to come on this tour with her, which was really interesting. Um but he has also worked through a lot of trauma and everything from this book that he wrote. And um it was just an interesting combo. Um anyway, I'm saying I'm a lot, sorry. So they did this tour. I didn't even know she was doing the tour. I happened to come across it on Instagram, and uh I was like, oh my gosh, she's gonna be in Dallas, and I just really, really want to go. Um, so I figured out how to get tickets and we ended up going. And yeah, I mean, it was it was right. No, it was I have done a lot of deconstruction work um already. So I I I was going more for her because she's a wonderful person.

Pamela 5:55

And I've been highly influential in your life.

SPEAKER_05 5:58

Yes, yes. And so like I was really going to see her and her speak. Um, and also, yes, I am interested in her book and what she wrote. Um, but she's just a very intelligent person, and I just was really excited to go see her and actually be in the same space with her again. Um, the last time I was in a space with her was back in 2019 um when I did a sacred feminine retreat with her and Lisa Gunger. Um that's where I encountered her in person, but I had been listening to her for a long time prior to that um through the liturgist podcast. Um and that's I think that's where we've was that when we first got introduced to her.

Josh 6:33

Yeah, yeah. That was yeah, so the in the liturgist podcast um was where we got introduced to her and several other people who have been really influential figures for us. Um Mike McCarg. Yes, um is not really in the public eye anymore, but but man, that guy, every time he speaks, I listen.

SPEAKER_05 6:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, that was so we've been listening to her for a long time, but she um has written uh some of the books in the past she's written about uh embodiment and body image and um just uh women in in and in handling a lot of that and how to move through it and find yourself and there's so much good um within this um and within this person. Like she's just she's just amazing and her research. Yeah, it's just brilliant. Yeah, yeah.

Josh 7:19

So the um the Joshua Harris book, I Kiss Dating Goodbye, was was an incredibly influential book within the purity culture that we grew up in. And essentially for the uninitiated, that the the idea behind that book is uh to approach dating in a way that uh really preserves purity that and and a very evangelical Christian sense of what purity is. And you know, that that was a very prolific book for the environment that I grew up in. Um, you know, he was absolutely a pseudo-celebrity in a lot of the circles that I ran in.

unknown 7:58

Yeah.

Josh 7:59

Um and it was a lot, you know. He he was uh he was good enough at at packaging that message in a way that felt approachable that you didn't realize what you were ingesting was actually a very unhealthy view of yourself and a very unhealthy view of the humans around you. And so part of what he is apologizing for at this point is is being part of that just era of damage. And so when you came across Hillary McBride, or when we did really, because we were both listening to the liturgists, we really dived into um a lot of her work almost immediately because she was just saying things that I hadn't heard a lot of people say within spiritual cultures, and it was refreshing and fun and and really good for us and really good for you specifically. Yeah. Once you actually went down and experienced the sacred feminine retreat, that was just formative. Like that was that was one of the most formative parts of uh I think of the last 10 years or so.

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Oh, yeah. Well, and that was a part of my that was I would say the biggest pivotal point in my deconstruction phase. Yeah.

Josh 9:09

So what was happening? What what do you feel like she said um on stage that was maybe impactful or even just something that that you know she gave words to that maybe you had trouble communicating about? Was there anything that stood out to you when you were attending this event that you're like, oh, these these ideas feel in line with with where I'm at right now?

SPEAKER_05 9:34

Um well, like I said, like a lot of it was a lot of it was surrounding like working through spiritual, you know, hurt and trauma and church hurt and all of that. And I for me, I you know, I feel like what she was speaking on, I've I have worked through a lot of so it was more of just a reinforcement of like what I did was the right thing. Yeah and like and what I experienced it was not okay and was wrong. And so the choices that I've made since recognizing those things was the right choice and moving away from um hurtful church, yeah, and you know, just um, you know, the the the situations that I was put in as a woman uh in church and as a person just trying to figure herself out. Like it was those things, it was like, no, what I did was right. It was just validating. I I don't, you know, and I feel like there's a lot of people there that were still in that deconstruction phase. And so I being on kind of the other side of it, you know, for me it was like just an appreciation almost.

Josh 10:49

Yeah. Well, let's let's let's give our our dear gentle listeners a little bit of a definition check because Yeah, that's what I was yeah, for for the uninitiated when we say the word deconstruction, what what that means within the the circles that we are involved in is essentially we grew up in high control religious environments that were very evangelical in their approach, they're very conservative in their approach. And when we say the word deconstruction, what we are talking about is the unpacking of those ideas to try and help them. I think at first it's it's an effort to help them make more sense, but then as you start to really poke at it, you're like, these things aren't for me. And so the the this teaching that we really lived with and the these ideas that we really live with, over time we just kind of started to realize this doesn't fall in line with what I believe as far as what the world is and who people are and all that. And like a core tenet of a lot of what we were taught growing up was anything anything that is not fully straight heterosexual is wrong and evil and bad. And and I think one of the first things we had to figure out was no, this is this is a fantastic group of people that is marginalized, and Christianity has been a part of that marginalization. And I think for both of us, a big part of us starting to ask some harder questions about our faith was why are these people excluded? What why why haven't we made space for this? And you know, the there's a very um common phrase the that evangelical Christianity holds on to of this traditional marital values or traditional family values, and and I just that's been concocted over time and doesn't actually represent what I believe the teachings of Jesus to be at all. And so anyway, uh some brief definitions there, a little bit of context. We grew up in just in environments that uh became your identity. That was another big piece of deconstructing, is is figuring out that this this religious system that you're holding on to it it's it isn't who you are, it just isn't. And we it took us a long time to unpack all of that. And then there was a whole marriage element uh for us of like because when you start poking at stuff, you end up at some point you will you land at traditional Western Christian marriage, and we had to be like, well, what do we believe about this, you know? And that was hard all by itself.

SPEAKER_05 13:29

Well, it's all that, and um, I mean, going back to purity culture, like I mean, pretty culture does a number. Um, and I mean, you're basically told as a woman, like you're dangerous, your body's dangerous, and you can't listen to yourself or your intuition or anything, like you um are basically told how to talk, how to dress, how to be, what spaces you can be in and can't be in, what you can say and not say like you're there's so much that you restrict your your of yourself and then you lose yourself. You just you completely lose who you are, and that was that's what happened to me. I mean, like I did you just are lost. And then you when you finally figure out that, like, oh, it's okay to actually listen to what's in here, like it's okay, it's it's yeah, it's a whole thing.

Josh 14:19

So I know Pamela, you grew up differently. You uh yeah, I I that you were part of uh a polygamy situation, right? Like you had there was Sister Wives and That sounds about right. Yeah, yeah, it was real culty. Um, all the jokes aside, I know that you had a very different experience, and so I am extremely interested in your perspective, both in hearing Hillary McBride talk, Dr. Hillary McBride talk and Joshua Harris talk and even Krista talk about some of her experiences. How does that contrast with just how you saw spirituality and faith growing up?

Pamela 14:57

That's a very loaded question. Um so I guess I grew up with like a my mother's family was Catholic, Catholic. Like that's what they believed. Um generationally, generational cat Catholicism. My dad's side claimed like Protestant, but I don't I don't really think they were if they had any sort of religion or faith that was non-denominational, you know, we didn't talk about it. Um so my mom grew up, like I said, Catholic, went to Catholic schools, the whole nine yards, and kind of by the time she had me, was done with that, just done with Catholicism. But it was still really, I think, spiritually what she was comfortable with. So she wasn't interested in going back to church, but she was also anything that kind of went outside of what she was familiar with was odd to her. So, you know, I I didn't go to church other than the times I would be at my great-grandmother's house, and she practically lived at the church across the street. So she was a librarian at the Catholic school, um, attached to that church for like 40, 50 years. Wow. Yeah. Um, and she was really kind of the the Catholic matriarch um of the family. Uh to the point where I, you know, this it really bled down. I mean, my mom and all of her sisters' names are Mary. They all end in A. There's a Teresa in there, you know. Um, and Catholicism was just a large part of the family. Um, the times that I would go, like I said, we're with my great-grandmother, weddings, funerals. I knew the the traditions and the most of the movements and the things that you recite. Um, but I didn't go, I didn't, I was never, I was baptized, it was never confirmed, I never had communion. Um, and so I was really kind of uncomfortable in church and religious spaces, never really understood who Jesus was, even though we had him on a cross hanging up in our hallway. I and just always asking, like, what is I and R I? Like, what is this? Like, I don't, I don't, and I it never really stuck. I never really understood. Well, also because Catholicism follows Mary more than Jesus. So I I knew about heaven, I knew about hell, um, I knew about wrong and right, but like really getting into the inside and out, I didn't know much. So fast forward to college. Um I was dating a guy for a very long time who I at one point thought I was gonna marry, and he was all about church, Christianity. He was part of a Southern Baptist church uh in Louisville, and one of his stipulations or standards or whatever was like, I want a Christian family, I want the Christian, you know, I want us all going to church on Sunday, which I was very uncomfortable with at first. Very, I just I did not want to step foot in a church, I did not want, I mainly because I was so insecure because I didn't understand.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah.

Pamela 18:44

And it was one of those like, I'm not going in here and looking like an idiot because I don't understand what's going on. Yeah. So it took a couple years. He was actually pretty patient. Took a couple years and then finally convinced me to go. And I remember sitting there and just feeling like that pastor was speaking to me. Now I I see, I'm like, okay, this is like every Sunday is this. But at the time, I just remember thinking, like, oh my gosh, like I've got to do something. Um and so he finally I would go to service, but I wouldn't do the Sunday school thing. And eventually he kind of convinced me to do the Sunday school thing. I think because there was a girl I went to high school with who was in that group. And so I was like, okay, maybe this is safe. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yeah.

Pamela 19:39

And I went in and I did not know what to expect. I did not understand. I was still figuring all this stuff out. And we get into the big group, and they're doing their prayer requests and all of this, and then they split the boys and the girls. And my friend wasn't there. And obviously, my boyfriend goes with the boys, and I'm just sitting in this circle of college-age females who've been doing this their whole lives, and I'm terrified.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah.

Pamela 20:12

I am like, this is my worst nightmare at this moment. I'm like, and of course, they go around in the circle and like they get to me, and I just like lock up. I don't, I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do. Like they were, they were nice about it, but like that was the first time I was like, it felt clicky to me.

Josh 20:32

Yeah.

Pamela 20:32

Like it was starting to realize I'm like, I am not these people. Like, I don't, I don't know that I'm ever gonna fit in. Um, I don't understand any of this. I look like an idiot, like it was not good. So I didn't go back for a long time um because I was terrified. I still felt like I had so much to learn and like all of this. And then um, I don't know, after a while, it kind of convinced me to try again. He's like, we won't split into groups. I was like, okay. Um, and so I really I started making friends, really close friends, and basically was kind of trying to assimilate into the culture.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah.

Pamela 21:18

You know, I was like, and I actually got to a point at one point where I was kind of pissed. I'm like, I can't believe my parents were just gonna let me go to hell, like for not being saved. But at the same time, like my parents though don't believe in that, right? Yeah, you know, and so but I was starting to believe in that. Uh and so I was getting kind of like indoctrinated, yeah, yeah. Not really knowing kind of what was happening, but just like I really like this is good, like these are good people, these are good things, these are things that we should be doing, like you know, this this you're kind of sold on it's almost like a cult.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah.

Pamela 22:00

Uh it's it's like you you get kind of sold on this idea of like this is not like the the nothing here is going to harm you right like we're here to enrich each other's lives, enrich our own lives, spread the gospel, all this stuff. Like, and so I was just kind of like, okay. Um at one point I was saved. Um and but there was still always just this part of me, I think it's just my like my nature is skepticism and rebellion and all of that. And so I was even then always skeptical, always asking questions, always, and I would ask questions. Like I was never discouraged from asking questions, but the answers I would get were would the like you could tell it was kind of the skirting around.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yeah.

Pamela 22:56

So for instance, um, at one point, this boyfriend and I were engaged and we were talking it uh about the Bible and submission.

Josh 23:08

Oh boy. I wonder how that went.

Pamela 23:12

Not well. Not well. Because I was just, I was very independent. You know, I could, I was okay being on my own and and all of this, and I was I just kept pushing back against you know, men love your wives, wives submit to your husbands. Like I could not reconcile that. Yeah, like I push back, push back. Well, well, you're not really submitting, you know, like you're the wife, you really run the household, but like he kind of makes ultimate decisions, but you have a say, and like they were just this whole like runaround to where I was still like, yeah, I don't know about that. I was getting down it didn't work for me. Like, I was getting down to like examples, like, okay, what if we're buying a car? You know, like I am like just going hard on this, and I'm just and there's still like I could tell they were like, just let this go.

Josh 24:15

Right.

Pamela 24:16

But I just that's just how I am. Like, I I'm like it just things were not reconciling, yeah. And it just really made it more and more difficult to be in that relationship. Um, I got to a point where like I wasn't even excited about the prospect of getting married, like things were just getting harder and harder. And in the end, obviously things fell apart. Um, I definitely dodged a bullet. Um but uh that that's kind of I I never got into the purity culture thing. Krista and I were talking, so we had a really good conversation after the Dr. Hill Hillary McBride event. Um like I try like I didn't grow up in purity culture, but I tried to assimilate into it. Yeah, you know, at that time because you know, I was in college, I was dating, like I was trying to, I don't know, make up for sins or shame or something, and trying to be a better person and and do the things that you're supposed to do and not do the things you're not supposed to do, and feeling like a lot of guilt and shame around, like, well, I'm already defiled, like at this point, and like like I don't know what I'm gonna do. Um gosh, oh the gum beneath your shoe.

Josh 25:36

Oh yeah, the gum analogy of it.

Pamela 25:39

But I was trying to assimilate into that, and I'm just really glad that like even though I still struggled with listening to my body and listening to myself and not feeling these feelings of shame and all of this, like I still held on to that like kind of rebellious nature, and I think that is what kind of kept me from really just I'm gonna tell you, like, if I had gotten married, like it would have been it, it would have been bad. And I think my body was telling me like this is we can't do this, yeah. Yeah, and so um, so that fell apart. I still kept trying to go, like I kept going to that church. I actually went to a different campus, um, and then Josh and I started dating, and um he was going to a bigger, like non-denominational church in Louisville. Um and so he and I were kind of going to church together for a little bit, and then they had a fire in brimstone, um, what do you call it? Um sermon? Sermon about homosexuality. And Josh has family in that community. And if you know my husband, he does not get upset, like really upset, really angry about like like a depth of anger about things, but this was the first time I was like, he we got up and walked out, yeah. And I was like, oh, okay. And at the time, I was still in that like love the sinner, hate the sin. Um, not really sure my feelings around homosexuality. Like, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't feel like I was judging anyone in that community. I I didn't really understand why we were ostracizing them. Um like I could definitely tell, like when I would sit in the pews and look around, like the congregation was mostly older white couples, very few um or very little diversity. Um, and I was kind of questioning that, but I didn't I guess at the time I just didn't I don't want to say I didn't care enough, it just didn't affect me.

Josh 28:09

Sure.

Pamela 28:10

And so I was just kind of like indifferent. Yeah, but when he laid like when he put his foot down, like we never went back after that. He was like, absolutely not, like, and so yeah, we had some really good conversations about that. We ended up switching to a different church for a little bit before we just kind of called it, yeah. Um, and really that was because my son was born and I was like, Yeah, I ain't doing this every Sunday. Like, I'm not getting up early and getting everybody ready, and just yeah, I I just I I was done. Um it wasn't for any particular reason, um, but I've always had questions and and have tried to kind of figure out where I am religiously, spiritually, uh, especially here, and I know we'll get into this, but here lately, like it's definitely helping me define where I stand with religion and spirituality. Um, we had really good conversation, like I said, after that event, um, where I was really felt like I could kind of start to articulate where I am and how I feel about things. But yeah, um, like so I was on the other, almost the other side of you all, where you kind of grew up in it and didn't necessarily know better. Where I came in from the outside trying to assimilate into it and just never just always being a little against the grain on everything because I questioned everything. I'm just that person. Like, I've got to understand, like it's gotta make logical, practical sense to me. And there were times that they could skirt around answers enough to where I was like, okay. And then they would always throw in the sometimes you just gotta have faith. Right.

Josh 29:58

Yeah, and you're like trump card.

Pamela 30:01

You're like, no, not about that. No, yeah, no, I I need more than that.

Josh 30:09

You and I grew up not just attending church, but also helping to facilitate church. And I mean, from a young age, both of us were playing music and singing uh like from a stage, and in both of our lives, that was kind of a place of prestige. Yeah, to that was a place that we worked really hard to get to and really hard to keep. Oh, yeah, and so that also came with its own sets of baggage too, because then you're sort of put on this pedestal of oh, you know, well, well, Krista leads worship, you know, or or well, Josh sings on Sunday and stuff, and so like celebrity, yeah, you're kind of you or yeah, yeah, you're you're sort of D-list celebrities within that environment. Yeah, and then you know, you get to be a part of some larger organizations, and we've been a part of a couple of very, very large organizations where you're this is really not an overstatement to say you're you're kind of a little bit of a local celebrity of sorts, like it's a very small community, yeah. But like you're out, you know, at Kroger doing grocery shopping, and you're stopped by somebody who you don't know, but who definitely knows you because they attend that congregation, and they're just like, Oh, I love the singing on Sunday and stuff.

Pamela 31:22

And so there's a part of it that's flattering and that that's oh, I definitely had like my favorite like worship singers, and I'm like, I'm like, yes, so-and-so singing today.

Josh 31:32

Yeah, yeah. Well, and and so you we we experienced that kind of from the other direction, but for you specifically, and I'll go a little bit into some of my experiences too, but but I know that for you specifically, you had some pretty complicated experiences as you were sort of jettisoned into these positions of leadership, you then had to face some pretty complicated situations where you were now expected to conform to certain things just as a woman, as a person, and all of that. And so, what was that experience like for you as you were coming up on the platform, quote unquote? Um what what do you remember about those experiences and and what um how do you think you changed because of it?

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Sure. So I think so to s to go into that, I have to kind of start a little bit backwards. So I um obviously some of a vocalist, I've been a vocalist for 20 plus years, um, but I started in a small little Southern Baptist church singing. I didn't grow up Southern Baptist, I grew up Catholic, actually. Um and we started going to this little Southern Southern Baptist church when I was, I think I was 13, 14-ish. And they we were in a group and they learned that oh, here's a girl who can sing, so you know, let's give her this and let her do the thing. And I'm just okay, you know. I didn't good.

Pamela 33:03

So Catholicism is the gateway drug to Southern Baptists.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And they're just so similar.

SPEAKER_05 33:12

No, that's a whole nother story. Um going from that to this. Um, no, it's I um I was like, okay, and I didn't I had no clue at this point what worship was was. I I was just like, oh, these are just people that you know just lead the songs. And you know, I can sing, I can do that. And so um that's where it started. So it started there, and then I started, um, I picked up guitar, learned guitar, started really learning what worship music was. Um, and I mean, I genuinely enjoyed it. Like it turned into something that I really loved doing. Um and then let's see, so we went from the Southern Baptist Church to um a more local church that was close to our house that was a Bible church. Um and I was a little bit older, so I'm thinking probably 16, 17. Um, the people in this church, the student ministry that I was in, some of those people went to school with me.

Josh 34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:13

So they knew that I was vocalists. They knew that, you know, I did all the things. And they're like, oh, Krista's here now, and so we can put her on stage and she can do it because so-and-so's not here. I'm like, okay. So, you know, I start doing the thing for our student ministry, you know, and then um that led into college ministry and I started doing it in college ministry and same church. Um I was doing the um and then so while at this Bible church, um, the main worship leader for the congregation found out that this girl was leading all of this worship music for the student ministry and the college ministry. And he was like, would you be interested in maybe leading on the big platform for like church services? And you know, we'll start you in this program and we'll give you, you know, put you in some of these classes, um, and then eventually get to a point where you're like more regular and actually being in the position of the actual like worship leader for the church.

Josh 35:22

I'm gonna pause you right there only because um I want to give a couple of term uh definitions here. There's a lot of church lingo. Yeah, we're using a lot of internal language.

Pamela 35:32

Another another sign of a cult.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

I mean, she's not wrong.

Josh 35:37

Um but okay, so for starters, we've already mentioned multiple denominations here. There's about seven bazillion denominations, and there's very nuanced differences between a lot of them. Um, and so you're gonna hear more denominational language, uh uh like Baptist and Bible churches. What's the difference between a Baptist and Bible church? Almost nothing. Right, but but there's some theological differences of theological, that's a fancy word for the study of Christianity, essentially. Uh, and so I I wanted to define a little bit of that because you're gonna continue to hear a little bit of that language. And then when she says courses and like classwork and preparation, that's exactly what it sounds like. So that in order to quote unquote prepare you to be on these platforms and be uh eligible to lead, you had to be educated. Um, and they wanted to make sure that your belief structure fell inside very certain boundaries. And so she though this is pretty common with especially with a large a lot of larger churches and a lot of more evangelical churches, they want to make sure that you're in lockstep with what that church believes before they put you in a position of leadership. So when she's talking about those things, that's what it means. So anyway, unpot and worship.

Pamela 36:50

Like it took me a while to understand that like worship was like that singing part.

Josh 36:54

Right. It's that singing part.

Pamela 36:55

Yeah, it's like the singing part of the service is the worship. Because I was just like, what are like, what are we worship? Like, what are we doing? Like, I don't understand. And I'm like, oh, this is how we worship. Uh okay, yeah. And then also denominations, if people don't know, these are just like Christian offshoots, right? Like they're different ways of practicing Christianity. They all some of them have like Christian uh Catholics have their own Bible or whatever, like Yeah, they've got some edits for sure.

Josh 37:21

But but essentially the it's it's all the same entree, just slightly different seasonings. Um, but I uh so worship to your point. So in a lot of the the environments you were in, yes, worship does refer to the music portion of the service. When you get into more mainline denominations like Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, worship means the whole thing. It's the whole hour that you are there. Yeah. And so that language even has some fluctuation within Christianity. Saying all this to say, this is confusing. If you're if you're listening and you're like, I don't know what half of this means, that's fine, just keep listening. But it is confusing. It's there's so much, and that's part of what's wrong, is that there have been all these divides over time based on relatively nuanced things. I mean, for for just as an example, for many, many years, women were not allowed in positions of leadership in the United Methodist Church. They evolved past that many years ago. But in Southern Baptist environments, women can be a children's pastor. You know, as long as you're around the kids, you have a natural place. But by and large, in the Southern Baptist denomination, women are not allowed to lead. And so, anyway, all that to say, we're trying to give you, we're trying to bring you along with us, but we understand we're using a lot of internal language, so just love us through it. Okay, we're we're all gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_05 38:39

Um, okay, so okay, so he we had that conversation, and I was in. I was like, great, yeah, like I want to do it. Like, let's go. So I did. I, you know, started taking these Bible classes basically, and um, and then I would be in rehearsals and I would be able to sing on platform with like other people and lead songs sometimes and all of that. Well, um there was one Sunday in particular where I was asked to stay after service. And so I was like, okay, cool, no big deal. Um, so everybody had left and it was basically like the people just fixing up, you know, and cleaning up and me and the worship pastor who was a man. Red flag number one. And he asked me to just sit down and have a chat with him. So I was like, Red flag number two. Um, and he proceeded to tell me, he said, We love having you up there with us. You do such a great job. We're really looking forward to what the future looks like and everything. And he's like, But um, we've had a couple of complaints from the congregation. And I kind of I mean, I'm a teenager. Uh, you know, I'm I'm what, 18, 19 at the time. Um, I was probably I think I was 18. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay. What did I do? You know, and like thinking I'm doing all the things right, you know. And he was like, So we've had a couple of complaints about um what you've been wearing on the platform. And I looked at him and I was like, what I've been wearing. And he was like, Yeah, uh, he goes, are he goes, you know, um, he was like, I understand, you know, you're a teenager, you're, you know, in, you know, high school, college, you know, obviously college. Um, and you know, you you're young, you you want to dress, you know, good and and trendy and like all this kind of stuff. He was doing his best.

Josh 40:35

Right.

SPEAKER_05 40:35

Um still not doing a good job. Still not doing a good job. And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, what is he about to say? You know, and then he proceeds to tell me that there have been people complaining about the tightness of my clothes um and what I've basically been wearing on stage. And I was like, and I'm thinking in my head, I'm like, my mom would never let me walk out of the house in anything inappropriate, especially for church.

Josh 41:04

Yeah, for real, y'all. That my mother-in-law is not happening. She would have form tackled her in the front yard. Like it, it just it would never ever happen. It would never, ever, ever happen.

SPEAKER_05 41:14

Yeah. Well, the next phrase, um, he says, So if it's a money issue, we can help you. But, you know, we're more than happy to maybe send one of the other women on the worship team with you to go like maybe buy some clothes for stage, you know, possibly. You know, how does that sound to you? And I sat there and I I was I was starting to get real angry and really sad too, and that this was even an issue. I I I just I couldn't believe that he was coming to me and saying these things to me. I was just, it was beyond, it was beyond my comprehension. And so I looked at him, I said, it's not a money issue. And, you know, I wear jeans and you know, cute tops that don't show anything. I make sure of it before I leave the house. And I reinstated that like my mom sees me every morning, like she would never let me wear anything inappropriate on stage. Um, and I was like, you know, I'll do my best to change. Yeah, I have clothes. I don't need money to go buy clothes. Like, um, but I I wanted to keep doing, you know, the music. Like I just I wanted to keep doing it. And so I was like, well, I I gotta, I gotta change, you know.

Pamela 42:32

I'd be like, listen. What are you expecting me to wear? Do you want me to wear long jeans, skirts with no slit and a cardigan? And I mean, but seriously, like what uh I would I would have made him real uncomfortable.

Josh 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:53

So I did what I could and I started, you know, wearing some different things. I, you know, my mom helped me and like all that. I didn't I didn't tell my mom like the full conversation. I basically turned it into this like, oh, I just need to get some new stuff to wear, you know, on stage and all that kind of stuff. So I didn't really say the things. She probably would have gone along with what they told me to do.

Josh 43:18

Because it's part of the it's it's part of that whole indoctrination process. Yeah, it it the thing that I think people don't realize who don't come up in these environments is the amount of your identity that gets wrapped up in these church environments. And with that identity also comes a sense of community, and the community is what makes it really hard to push back in those environments. Yeah. Because you your community is tied to these these functions that you're personally a part of. You know, you're we're on stage with other people, they they become our good friends, they become your community, they become the people that you know you reach out to when someone's sick or whatever, and and and so when you're Engaged in those kinds of conversations, what's going through your head is not just the injustice of it all, but it's also the well, I have to respond correctly because if I don't, it's gonna cost me all of this relationship and all of this identity. And and I think that's a huge Another sign of a cult. Yeah, yeah. I mean it is.

unknown 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:18

And so anyway, you went shopping with your So I went shopping, did the thing, made the changes, and then wouldn't you know it, probably three months later, we had the same conversation. And at the end of that conversation, I looked at him and I said, I can't do this anymore.

Josh 44:38

Right.

SPEAKER_05 44:38

And um, I said, if this is what it's about, if people are looking at what I'm wearing on stage, yeah, like then they're they're it's not my fault. Like I they should be they should be, you know, more in tune with look worship and and all this stuff, and they're busy looking at what I'm wearing. Like, how does I I don't get it? I don't I don't understand. And I didn't and I'm still, you know, I'm I'm still figuring all this worship stuff out and everything too, because I'm again I'm still a teenager, like, you know, and um, and I but I told him, I was like, in in me, I knew that was not right. Like I knew this was wrong. He shouldn't be talking to me like this. This is not okay. And I just, I just I can't do this anymore. And so um I ended up leaving um that church. Now, my my parents actually still went there for a little bit. Um, I left there and I went to a um Assemblies of God church that was really another denomination. Yeah.

Josh 45:37

Very little difference, really. Charismatic. Yeah, very little different.

SPEAKER_05 45:41

Now, the church that I was in from stage, you don't really, you didn't really lift your hand. You kind of, you know, you kind of stood still. And at this other church, no, it was like full on dancing on stage. Full contact worship. Yeah, yeah. It was a whole I needed a change. Like I needed something completely different. So I ended up going there for a little bit. My parents actually ended up following a little bit after that. We went there for a little while. The previous um, did you ever I no, I don't know that I ever actually really said anything. Um they know now, but then it was more of just, I think it was, I think I said, I don't know, my friends, it was all friends and stuff related, you know. And I had people that I knew went there, and so I just wanted to go check it out. And everybody said it's great and fun and like all this. And I their worship team um was like really well known. Um, they had great musicians, great vocalists. Yeah, and that was the trajectory. I I really wanted to be a part of a team that knew what they were doing with professionals, and like I I that's I wanted to go that direction. Um, and so yeah, I ended up going there, meeting people there. Um I didn't lead worship actually there for a while. Um, I had some friends that I kind of helped out a little bit, but I didn't really go back because I was so hurt from this. That was my that was my first biggest church hurt. Um, and then really fast forward, there's so much in between, but really fast forward into that. My my second really big church hurt was um actually pretty similar, but we were together at the time.

Josh 47:15

Yeah, yeah. Uh so I was employed, you were a contractor, but um okay, zooming out again, uh when you hear us talk about like professional musicians and things like that, it's important to understand that North Texas is an incredibly competitive church market. And so we also have the University of North Texas here, which is a massive farm system for musicians. And so what a lot of churches in North Texas do to stand apart or to try and present something with quality is they hire their musicians. This is very, very common. This is something I still am involved with. And so there's always a little bit of a competitive spirit between a lot of these organizations as to who can have the best sounding band, the best sounding room, things like that. So uh I was a staff member for a church in Dallas, and Krista was a contract vocalist for that church. And because of her aesthetic at the time, she had dreadlocks, she was a little bohemian vibe in at the time. Um because of her aesthetic and because of the fact that she was a little bit expressive on stage, they asked me to fire her.

SPEAKER_05 48:17

And yeah, that went over well.

Josh 48:19

Yeah, yeah. Boy, I should have walked out that moment. And and the only reason I didn't was because I went to you and said, What do you want me to do? Yeah. And you said, I don't know. Let me think about it. And you took a weekend and and really considered it because that that at the time that professional opportunity was a pretty significant opportunity for us.

SPEAKER_05 48:36

It was, it was big.

Josh 48:37

And so it wasn't small for us to walk away from that. That would have been a very serious life change. So that was church hurt number two for you. And so Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:47

So I went from there. I I stepped away, you stayed for a little bit. I stepped away from church for a while until we had a friend come to us that was like, hey, um, I have this uh cousin who's uh worship leader at this church, a different church in Dallas. Um, and uh they're looking for some help because he's gonna be leaving and they're wanting somebody to kind of help and step in, step in. And so I was like, sure, I'll I'll go and feel the vibes. So I guess like we'll just we'll see how it goes. Um, so I went went to a service, um, led for a service, and I was like, okay, I'm I'm great with this. I'm I'm good with this. Um and one of the biggest things there for me while I was there was this church was an inclusive church. Um and like affirming yes, they were an affirming church, and the queer community is very prevalent in this um community.

Pamela 49:46

And uh do you want to explain like so what affirming it? Yeah, we just include LGBTQ inclusive.

Josh 49:53

Pause for another definition. So when we say an affirming church or an inclusive church, that's code for they let the gazy. Um they they are um try that they try and be as welcoming as they can. Now, there is a spectrum of affirming churches. Yeah, there's affirming in that sure you can come here, but we don't want to talk about it all the way to full throttle activism within the LGBTQ community. And so the it's a broad spectrum, it is way too much for us to get into right now. Um, we've already been at this for a long time. So we yeah, that we'll have to cross that bridge another day. But when we say affirming, that means a church that allows the homosexuals in. Um and uh and yeah, so you arrived at one that that they just they had a bunch of homosexuals.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

Oh, yeah, and it well, and it was like nothing I've ever been to before. And I loved it. And this was I was like, yes.

Josh 50:56

And then where you met Justin and Patrick. Yes, yeah, and that's how we met Justin and Patrick.

SPEAKER_05 51:00

Yeah, well, and like I and I loved it, and that's when my deconstruction phase started for me. Was I was like, this is amazing. Why have I missed that missed out on this for so long? And also, I've been told my whole life that this is not okay.

Josh 51:18

And here they are being better Christians than we were.

SPEAKER_05 51:20

Yes, and I'm like, how are you worshiping better than me right now? And I'm gonna put on the page. Like, what is happening? And it's it was like, it was this whole big like, okay, like I I need to figure this out. And I want to stay here, you know, for a while. And he was still in a different way. He was still in the other place and I left.

Josh 51:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:41

And so, but you ended up coming over. We ended up being there for five and a half years. Five and a half years. Um, had kid and another kid, and then ended up going to uh another church after that. Yeah.

Josh 51:53

Um our last one.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

Um, but what that was so, but this church that I was at before Josh joined me, that was where my whole deconstruction phase started. Um, but you know, I yeah, church hurt for me has been very interesting. And those were kind of the those were two of the high-level ones. There's also another one that him and I were a part of.

Josh 52:12

Yeah. Um and I and just for the sake of time, I'm probably gonna skip that one because it's it's just it's a lot to get into. But but yeah, we that that church ended up being ironically where my deconstruction started too, a little after you. But it was all for the same reasons. It was wait, I was told my whole life how evil this group of people was and how dangerous it was, and you know, the gay agenda and blah blah blah, which turns out the gay agenda is really just bringing the golden girls back to mainstream broadcast television. Like that's really that's a big piece of the puzzle. But I was just I was exposed to this whole different approach, um, and it it flipped my theology on its head because I was like, wait a minute, wait, so you're telling me that this can all coexist? So what else have I been taught that isn't actually true? Right. And and that, you know, you and I, Pamela, have the analytical brains where we just go, okay, let's start unpacking things. Like, I'm gonna start taking this apart and see what's underneath it and see if I actually connect with it at all. And so once I started doing that, things started to unravel a little bit for us. And so by the time so that there was one more church stop after that for for Krista and I, where we we were also on staff and very, very involved, our children were very, very involved, and that went down in flames. Um, but even when we got there, I was kind of in a place of like, I am going to claim Christianity because it's my native tongue, but I also don't I I I think if I really started to reveal some of my theology to a lot of the people that I'm around, they would look at me and say, You're not a Christian. To which I especially today in 2026 would say, you know what? You're based on your definition, you're right. I'm not. Um and neither are you. Right. Yeah.

Pamela 54:09

Oh, we're we we'll save that rabbit hole. Right. That was something that we talked about. Like, yeah, like anyway.

Josh 54:17

But we we had a very formative set of experiences there, and and as far as like my own beliefs and processes at this phase in my life, I think the the the language that I use around spirituality sounds very Christian because that is the most comfortable language that I have. It's it's where I have the the biggest uh set of experiences to draw from. And so I do still draw from that. I do still use Christian language sometimes and things like that. But the reality is I I like to say that all of my theology is written in pencil. Like I reserve the right to change it, I reserve the right to grow, I reserve the right to evolve. Um and I I believe very strongly that spirituality and spiritual practices are very important and formative and a vital part of our experience as humans. And I, you know, as long as your spirituality is not harmful, I really couldn't care less what it is. Like if it's serving you, if it's meeting your needs, if it's giving you community, if it's giving you moments of reflection and pause and introspection, then I think it is a net good where it gets really complicated. And where I where my where a lot of my relationship with evangelical Christianity started to fall apart was in 2015 during the first Trump campaign, and all these evangelical leaders were hitching their wagon to the Trump campaign, and I was like, what are y'all doing? Am I am I just seeing things? Am I hallucinating?

SPEAKER_05 55:54

Like what yeah, because everything that we had grown up to to know and it is like, what? How does this make sense? Right. So it's so nobody else is supposed to do it, but he can.

Josh 56:06

Right. With a tiny bit of analysis, you can you can be like, this man doesn't bel it doesn't hold uphold Christian values, it's not that hard to see. And so I started really coming unglued when that started happening, and that was way back. You know, that's been some years, 11 years ago now. And so once once I started to unpack some of this stuff, I just realized, you know, I don't really want to subscribe to anything that looks like mainstream Christianity anymore. It's still the the my most natural spiritual language. Like I I I can draw from it very easily. I think that there are formative and positive things about it. I think that there are really wonderful things about the teachings of Jesus, and I think that he was very clear on where he stood about a lot of things that modern day Christianity gets horribly, awfully wrong. Um and I, you know, at this point, I used to use the terminology a few years ago. I went through a phase where I kind of called myself spiritually homeless. Like I I felt like I I really valued that part of my life and that experience, but I also didn't know where to direct my energy. And so for those of you who, you know, have heard other episodes and stuff like that, one of the things that I have talked about in the past is like I still play music at churches from time to time. And you might listen to the words I'm saying about Christianity and think, well, how do you in good conscience get on a platform and sing songs? That's a great question, and I'll tell you. Because I had to unpack this for myself. I do genuinely believe in the spiritual practices that help make us complete humans. And I believe that the people who show up at the organizations I'm involved with are people who are just doing their best to exercise some of their spiritual life and to engage in community and to engage in something that is doing positive things for the world around them. And I am at peace with helping to facilitate their experience because I do have a set of skills that helps facilitate that experience. And so I can be at peace with being like, okay, I don't buy into every word of this song that I'm singing, but I don't need to because I am helping create an environment where people are getting something that is serving them. Now, I do not under any circumstances participate in services at churches that are non-affirming. If you that is a hard line and I do not cross it, period. The churches that I am involved with are fully affirming organizations that let anyone who wants to exercise some spirituality walk through their door. And that is a non-negotiable for me and it will never change. And so, you know, that that's I do have some boundaries with all of this. I do have restrictions and guidelines for myself of what I will do and will not do. And so that is, dear gentle listener, that's where I stand at this point. And and so if we're trying to land on some level of definition, um, I consider myself somebody who very much values spiritual practices, help wants to help facilitate them, probably going to do it in Christian environments, and I'm gonna change whatever I believe when I feel like it's time.

Pamela 59:30

So in my mind, you came to this conclusion because you were in a cover band gig singing Beyonce's All the Single Ladies, and you managed to facilitate that experience without actually identifying with being a single lady.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Or Beyonce for that matter. I was neither Beyonce nor a single lady.

Josh 59:56

Yeah, you know what's funny is I've never sang all the single ladies in any of my cover band gigs, but I'm gonna I'm gonna try now. Like well, I'm normally sitting with a female vocalist who'll handle those sorts of things, but you know you will. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:08

Yeah. But that's I mean, basically what you said is is how I feel too. Because I mean, I'll fill in every once in a while for friends of ours and and all of that. And yeah, I mean, I if if I can help somebody out there connect with whatever they believe, then I'm doing something right. And um I'm helping, I I just see it as I'm I'm helping other people and by helping them connect. And even though I don't believe everything that I'm singing, like, you know, as long as it's helping somebody else, I'm great with that. Um, and but yeah, and but going back to Hillary and stuff like that, you know, but I we talked about the high hurts and stuff like that. And there's a I mean, there's a lot of low ones too. I mean, for both of us. And you know, mine swims around all the purity culture stuff a lot, and for you too. I mean, and we even in our after we got married, I mean, we gosh, because of purity culture, we struggled with so much. I mean, I struggled so bad with body image and and everything, and just you know, trying to unpack all of that stuff was a road, yeah, you know, and it was a lot for both of us for a few years, you know. Um and that's a big that was a big thing for many, many people. Yeah.

Josh 1:01:22

You know, yeah. Yeah. So and and you know, when I there's there's a core group of my friends who I grew up with in church environments that I'm still connected to probably half a dozen of them. And we have all reflected together on the things that we miss from those days. Um, because there is a community element to it that that's that's hard to replace, especially when you're a teenager and early 20s and all that, and you're just craving the sense of belonging, and they provide it. Church can provide that. Yeah. And so, you know, there are people that we are still connected to in our lives to this day that all came out of those environments, and and I am grateful for those relationships. And and I think if I want anyone to hear me say anything about church, it's that I I am not anti-church, I am not anti-Christian, I I am very much anti-Christian nationalism. I am I do not believe that we should give these high control religions the opportunities that we give them to dictate so much about our lives. And at the same time, you know, if if you are a practicing Buddhist and that is meeting your spiritual needs, and you feel like you have community around you and you have a sense of purpose and all of that, then by all means go be Buddhist. Like go be Hindu, go be Muslim, go be pick your pick your flavor. But I think the the pursuit of spirituality is is a uh a deep foundational part of who we are as human beings, and I fully support chasing after that. I will never support chasing after it in a way that's harmful to other people, but hey, stay out of that, and and you're doing something really great. Yeah, and so you know, we we we've gone on now for over an hour uh about this. It's I don't want to I don't know It's a big topic.

Pamela 1:03:10

It is, it's a huge topic. We've just scratched the surface. There's so much more like I'm like, oh, we could get into this, we can get into that.

Josh 1:03:17

Seriously, yeah. You know, and maybe we'll do part two and part three and well, but okay, but that's actually kind of a great idea though, because I am fortunate to have some truly brilliant clergy friends who I trust in these environments and with these conversations who I think could give some helpful context. Now, all the clergy that I know personally are going to be Christian clergy. I don't know any uh clergy from other sort of spiritual practices or anything like that. But um, you know, I do I do think that this is an important topic. I do think that I was fascinated. So Pamela brought this up to me earlier about kind of having this conversation. And the more I thought about it, the more I was like, man, I I actually would be really excited to talk about some of these things. We had some interactions with a trusted friend and somebody who listens to this that just made us think, hey, we should probably put some more definition around this because we've left things open-ended in a way that could allow for a lot of assumptions, and that's just not something that we wanted. And so that's really what this conversation is meant to do is to say, hey, here is where we are, really. And and you know what? Where we are is subject to change. And and that's that's perfectly okay as long as you're not rolling up into some Christian national.

Pamela 1:04:32

Well, and I think it was also the context of where we've been.

Josh 1:04:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pamela 1:04:36

Where we've been, the experiences that we went through, and how we get got to where we are here. I want to dive so much more into this.

Josh 1:04:42

Yeah, but I do too. We could go hard.

Pamela 1:04:44

I have so much, so much unsaid.

Josh 1:04:47

Yeah, yeah, so do we.

Pamela 1:04:49

Um, but I think this is a really good conversation right now because I think a lot of people are questioning, you know, right now, Christian and Christian nationalism and evangelical and all of this is getting really wrapped up into politics. I mean, it's there's always been, you know, this intermingling, but like it's becoming very prevalent. And I think that a lot of people maybe, especially younger people, maybe seeing some of these prominent political um figures preaching about being Christians and being nowhere near. And I think it's important that we kind of start having the conversation of like, hey, just because you say you're a Christian, right? I could say I'm a frog. Okay. Like, I'm not a frog. Okay. Like, but there are also yeah, you know. But like there I and I identify as a Christian. I don't like to say that I identify as a Christian because of the immediate things that people come to mind because we have these political figures who are out here saying that they're Christians and they're not. And I'm like, don't associate me with that. This is like we are not the same. And I think it's important that we start having conversations about okay, well, what does this look like? What does Christianity look like? What is it not look like? Like what can it look like? Maybe what I am, maybe I identify as Christian, like you said, because it's a native tongue. Yes. But maybe that's not it anymore. Like, I don't know. Um maybe we're creating a whole new cult of religion. I don't know. But I think we need to start having more conversations about religion and what it looks like, especially with the backdrop of today's political climate and what it is and is not.

Josh 1:06:59

Yeah, yeah. So to join our cult, you can jump over to Substack. Yep. And and for eight dollars a month, you can be a part of our specific cult. Yep. And the good news is there's no rules. So, you know, just do with that what you will.

Pamela 1:07:12

Um I mean, because you're probably already in a cult and ours is better.

Josh 1:07:16

Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're gonna pick a cult, you should definitely pick ours. Um no, thank you so much for joining us on what is uh what was a a broad sweeping uh uh episode of Premeditated Opinions, and we are so grateful that that you you jump in with us for the funny stuff and you jump in with us for the more serious stuff. And we don't always want to be serious, but we also recognize that you know, if Pete Hegseth is going to have a prayer meeting at the Pentagon, then maybe this is kind of all being forced on us, and maybe it's the right time to share a little bit more about where we're at and invite you into this process with us. So let's get weird. Come on over to Substack, drop a comment, subscribe to us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all the things, TikTok. Um, yeah, you can also find this one, Krista Miller, uh uh at KristamillerArt.com or Krista MillerArt on Instagram. Um, she does great stuff and and explores the topics of spirituality in her work. And and uh yeah, I think everyone would really benefit from that. So thank you so much for joining us on this weird little journey. And we sure hope that you don't quit listening to us because of this.

Pamela 1:08:24

Well, that's it for premeditated opinions, where the thoughts were fully baked and only mildly regrettable. If you enjoyed today's episode, congrats on having truly excellent taste in podcasts and opinions. Following us on YouTube and Instagram is a quick and easy way to support us. So if you liked literally anything about today's episode, please like and subscribe.

Josh 1:08:47

Also, send this to someone who needs to feel seen, dragged, or both. We'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling. And until then, please stay hydrated and behave yourself in the comments. But if you don't, at least make us laugh.