JT 0:00

How do you feel about some of the other things that that software can do being handed out to um you know somebody at one of the to the guy that set himself on fire at the independent we worked at.

Josh 0:16

Oh story time Yeah, let's tell that story.

Scott 0:21

I set a self off. I don't remember that.

JT 0:25

You you and Joe were eating lunch at the front desk, and you said you looked up through and saw through the glass in the shop Jeff running across his arm on fire.

Josh 0:36

I probably could just make up the story. What's that mean? I don't know.

JT 0:43

I feel like I was on vacation.

Josh 0:45

I've only had this much apple juice.

JT 0:49

I'm pretty sure it was when I was gone and you broke your toe.

Pamela 0:53

That's when we got married.

Scott 0:55

Well, if that's the case and I was clearly otherwise involved with my foot. I do I do not remember him being on fire.

Pamela 1:12

You're listening to premeditated opinions because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway. I'm Pamela.

Josh 1:18

And I'm Josh, and we are two people who somehow share a brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones. Each week, we unpack anything from politics and religion to carpool dread and everything in between.

Pamela 1:31

You know, it would really help us a lot if you followed us on Instagram and YouTube. Giving us a like and a follow is probably the best thing your thumbs will do today.

Josh 1:40

We are not experts. We are just way too confident in our own opinions. With all that being said, let's get started. Welcome back to Premeditated Opinions. We are just kind of coming at you real scattered uh today. There's a lot going on. So first I'm just gonna break down if you're watching this on YouTube, here's what you're probably seeing. You're seeing me in a hotel room because I am currently in New Orleans, Louisiana for work. Um, you're seeing Pamela, who is joined for the very first time by Josh, the other Josh, um her actual spouse, not her podcast co-host. And they have invited their longtime friend Scott, who is in Louisville, Kentucky. So this is truly a diversified location podcast here. We are doing the whole thing. Um, so we are thrilled to uh kind of dive in. We we we have got something on the docket today that I think all of us will be able to speak to uh in some pretty interesting ways, and I'm excited about it. But just for starters, I want to give these two guys an opportunity to introduce themselves a little bit. So let's start with Josh. Why don't you introduce yourself a little bit and just tell us who you are, your relationship with this podcast, blah, blah, blah, and like I don't know, something interesting.

Pamela 2:56

He's my husband, that's all. Okay, how about Scott?

JT 2:59

I'm married to this one. Well, that was disrespectful. Um I've been working on cars like 20 plus years now. Um, worked at various different manufacturers. I started out doing like heavy duty stuff, so 18-wheelers, uh transit buses, um, cool stuff like that. And then recently have taken uh kind of a different role than turning wrenches. I don't have to do that anymore. Um so it's a it's a little bit more of like the software and like diagnostic side stuff. Um but yeah, it's been a trip.

Pamela 3:38

It's what brought us down to Dallas.

JT 3:40

And it's also how I met Scott.

Scott 3:42

This is true. This is true.

Pamela 3:44

Oh, I was looking at this okay.

Josh 3:47

The greatest event of his life. Turns out it was more important than marriage, children, you know, yeah, clearly like far and away more important.

JT 3:58

I mean, there for a long time. Anytime I left work and Scott and I were not working together, he injured himself.

Scott 4:04

Also true.

JT 4:05

Also true.

Pamela 4:06

Yeah, yeah.

Scott 4:07

So, Scott, who the hell are you, man? I am the greatest person you will ever know. No, I have also worked on vehicles for if you count college now over 20 years, because I did go to a technical school for this, for whatever that was worth. And I have been in dealership roles as a mainline technician. I worked in independent shops, which is where I met Josh. Uh and I've been at my current job for 14, almost 14 years, and as one of the lead technicians there, uh training apprentices, things like that. I am what they call a world-class technician for General Motors, so not too many of us out there, but that that allows me a little respect at work, a little leeway with people. So whether or not I'm really all that good, I don't know. But it says I am on paper. Nice.

JT 5:07

That's all that matters. Yeah, that's right.

Josh 5:09

The paper's all that matters. My wife and I had an opportunity to go up to Louisville and uh actually meet Scott and Amy back in October of last year and and had a great time with them. Uh had a great time in Louisville in general. Uh, that was a blast of a trip. So I I have had the opportunity to hang with Scott and Amy a little bit, and they're awesome. Um, and so basically, like this is a pretty unique uh set of topics today, only because you know we we brought some people on to chat through right to repair legislation because we know that this has been big news, it's gonna continue to be big news, and as just the the world of of consumer goods continues to evolve, it's gonna continue to be big news. And so we wanted to chat through right to repair a little bit. Um and we're we're trying as a podcaster take on some things that kind of challenge us and give us an opportunity to voice some of these premeditated opinions. That's actually the name of this freaking show. So uh so uh as we kind of roll into this, I wanted to set the stage for what right to repair is and and sort of identify both sides of this argument because this has been in legislation both on the state and federal level, um, and there's some major manufacturers who are really backing this. There's other manufacturers who aren't so much. Uh but right to repair basically refers to the idea that when you as a consumer buy a product, be it a phone or a car or a tractor or a medical device, an appliance, that you as the consumer should have the legal right to repair it yourself or take it to an independent repair facility rather than being forced to use the manufacturer's service network. And basically, the to me this really comes down to how we define ownership. Um so the case for right to repair, the the pro-repair arguments are like that they're they're drawn from a few different categories. So uh the first one is consumer rights and ownership. If you bought it, then you own it. And it you're if you're forcing a consumer to use your like required repair network to actually fix it, then it it's kind of seen as an extension of a monopoly to where okay, you the the ownership never really transferred to the consumer who bought it if the manufacturer has to be the one to do all the repairs. Cost is a huge factor because authorized repair centers are almost always more expensive. There's environmental impact, uh, forcing people to buy new devices or new equipment when a simple repair would suffice. And there's a lot more kind of nuance around like rural access and small businesses. The case against rights repair comes down to safety and intellectual property more than anything else. But but the the argument for safety is that poorly executed repairs can create genuine danger, especially in complex electronics, medical devices, and vehicles. Um and then intellectual property is an interesting one. So repair often requires access to proprietary software, schematics, or trade secrets. Um and then there's quality control elements, other security elements. So anyway, I'm curious just to the two technicians uh in this recording, how have you guys encountered this already? Have you encountered anything around this already? And what is that, what does that look like practically, like in the worlds that you're in?

Scott 8:29

Well, I mean, I see facets of that every day. Like we have a tremendous amount of components that require what they call a pun, a part unique number. Um, not that this, you know, you take a component off a vehicle and have a replacement component. It's clearly going to bolt up, it's gonna be exactly the same. However, you have to be able to input that unique number into the ECU for it to function, or it will not work, even though everything's bolted up, everything's hooked up exactly like it was. And some of those parts have nothing to do with calibrations or anything else. It's just simply letting the vehicle recognize that you have replaced this component. Your average consumer is incapable of doing that, even in even with the tools to take something completely apart, the tools to put it back, even with the knowledge, they are incapable of actually accomplishing the completed task because they have no way to access that software. They have no way to put that in. And you might have something very inexpensive that shuts down a $80,000 vehicle that you could very much replace yourself, but now you're required to take it to a dealership or a facility that has access to that software to fix it. And that can probably be extremely frustrating.

Pamela 9:58

Yeah. These parts you're talking about, I mean, are these basic parts that have been on cars forever? Are these like things that are coming out? Are these computer only? Like what like kind of parts?

Scott 10:11

In a sense, yes, some of them are are parts that have been in a vehicle forever. Um, for example, since the inception of, like I said, I work for General Motors. So then since the inception of their eight-speed transmissions, 10-speed transmissions, things like that, you know, you have a valve body, which automatic transmissions have had valve bodies since they began. I mean, they're just electronically controlled now and they communicate with a lot of different things. In the grand scheme of things, it is not very difficult to replace one of these. If you had if you can get under the vehicle, you take the transmission pan off, you unbolt the bolts, you bolt it back up. However, even you can go into a dealership or a facility and buy this part, and you can go home. And if you have the knowledge and tools, you can look the directions up and do the entire repair yourself. But you have to have that number which is stamped on the valve body or in the paperwork with it, and you have to be able to program that in, or it will not work. So you you have you can go buy the tools to do it, you can buy the parts to fix it, you can do everything yourself. But that last step to get you across the finish line, you can't accomplish. Which for somebody who is mechanically inclined or whatever, would be a very difficult, you know, you've worked on cars your whole life, you've just never worked in a professional setting. You know, there's plenty of people out there that do stuff on the side, and they can't they can't finish it. So, you know, that's that's when you're trying to save money in this day and age. I mean, that's that can be tough.

Pamela 11:46

So would you have to go to a dealership to get that done, or will dealers like not even enter that for you because of like liability or something?

Scott 11:54

No, that I mean we actually have several times, me specifically, but the dealerships in general, like even a transmission itself, the entire component has they don't call it a pun, it's a ton, a transmission unique number that has to be programmed in. Yes, you you we don't have an issue as long as you've done the repair appropriately, that we can tell, we don't have an issue typically programming it. But there are plenty of independent shops around us that will replace these valve bodies, these transmissions, and there are various other components in a vehicle that have numbers like that that need to be programmed. And they will bring it to us, and if they have the number, we can put it in. Now, unfortunately, this is where some of the repairing it yourself uh people screw up. If if that number, for example, wasn't in the paperwork, the only way to get it is to actually physically look at the part. And if you've already installed it and you didn't record the number, you didn't do what you needed to do, then it's either up to you to take it back out, get the number off, or then you have to pay us or whoever you want to remove the component, get the number. There is no way around it. You have to have those numbers to program it in to make the part function correctly. I'm not saying they won't work, but they won't function correctly.

Pamela 13:21

Yeah, but then that's also probably added cost because I'm assuming some of these parts the car won't run without. Oh, correct. You'd have to probably get it towed in. Yeah, you'd have to get it too. Yeah, you'd have to get you'd have to pay to get it towed in. Um, you know, I'm just thinking back to like when I was a kid um and my dad would work on he had an 88 Grand Am, Pontiac Grand Am. And he would buy those haze books. Do you remember? Like Haze Manuels. The Haze Manuals at AutoZone. Um and you know, he did a lot of his own repairs just, you know, outside. Um he would be pissed if he like replaced it because I could I could absolutely see my dad saying it's a bad part and taking it off and like changing it out, and then so now he's gone through this whole rigmarole, and now he's finding, oh, I gotta take it in. I can't get it there. You know, it would it have just been cheaper for me to take it in and get it replaced, or am I saving any money going this alternate route?

Scott 14:29

Well, yeah. It depends on the price of the part, and it depends on how people quantify how valuable their time is. I mean if it's something that I can just simply reach over here and unbolt in ten minutes and bolt up, then it's worth me doing that and then taking it somewhere and having it done. You know, the the having it finished. But if it's a very highly involved process, it's not that somebody can't do it, but it becomes is it worth it for me? And that's that's an end that comes down to the individual. I I can't say what my time's worth versus somebody else. Like they they might value their time way less than me.

Pamela 15:11

And do you charge people who come in to get these parts registered?

Scott 15:16

Yes, because it has to we have to use, yeah, you it has to be programmed, so we charge, which any any shop would you know where everybody's labor rate is different. So you charge whatever the door rate is, you know, for a half hour, an hour to program, whatever the case may be.

Pamela 15:35

Which could be over a hundred dollars. I mean, and then yes, yeah, and then do you do any sort of inspection? I mean, because I'm assuming there's a liability component to this too, where you probably need to make sure it was installed correctly before we go and register this, because if we let it out on the road and it's not installed correctly and there's something that goes wrong, is the dealership liable for that?

Scott 15:57

In general, in my personal experience, of course, it's everything is anecdotal for me. No, we don't. I mean, we you do a cursory inspection for any vehicle that you look at. You know, we're clearly going to alert somebody, even if it's not related to something they did. We're gonna be, oh, your wheels get ready to fall off, or no, something's something terrible's getting ready to happen. But no, we get many people that install their own engines, install their own transmissions, major components, and some of them do it exactly how we would, uh, and some of them do not.

JT 16:35

Uh-huh.

Scott 16:36

And you can very much tell the difference between somebody who knew what they were doing and somebody that didn't. And regardless, if they if it's functioning when they bring it in, no, we program it, we cut them loose. Because that's on you. The onus is on you for what you've done. Like you, you, you repaired it, you did it, you know, and and and that's it.

JT 17:00

Yeah, like the the repair order or whatever, once they sign that, like that's their legal document that said, I brought my car in here for this one specific thing. Yep. You are doing that, you are not liable. If you read the small print on there, there's a a bunch. Like you're not liable.

Scott 17:18

If and almost all dealerships will be will have some sort of form or or something that you sign. You are, you know, so that way we're not held liable if you do something stupid.

JT 17:30

Yeah. So with right to repair now, like, I'm assuming you guys don't use like the the tech two anymore. At least like for the up to date. Okay. Not since like pre-2012.

Pamela 17:44

Remember, a lot of our art aren't aren't gearheads.

JT 17:48

It's a scan tool that was proprietary to GM, whatever. I'm assuming you guys have entered this century and are using like laptops for your connections and all that jazz. Correct, correct. Um so at this point, like right to repair is you have to manufacturers have to make the tools that are available to their technicians available to everyone.

Scott 18:16

Correct, that is what uh right to repair is, yeah.

JT 18:19

Yeah, so like, how do you feel about some of the other things that that software can do being handed out to um you know somebody at one of the to the guy that set himself on fire at the independent we worked at.

Pamela 18:37

Oh, story time!

Josh 18:38

Yeah, let's tell that story.

JT 18:43

It is got you tell that one because I wasn't there.

Pamela 18:45

Okay, and one thing, so tell your stories in the power of editing. If there's anything you're like, hey, actually I I don't want that to be on the internet, like just you know, when we're done and we'll we can cut it out.

Scott 18:58

So I'm sure everything about my life's on the internet anyway. So I'm not that interesting, I promise. I said a cell phone, I don't remember that.

JT 19:09

You you and Joe were eating lunch at the front desk, and you said you looked up through and saw through the glass in the shop Jeff running across his arm on fire.

Josh 19:25

I probably can just make up the story. Or was that- you did say that. What's that mean? I don't know.

JT 19:31

I feel like I was on vacation.

Josh 19:33

I've only had this much apple juice.

JT 19:38

I'm pretty sure it was when I was gone and you broke your toe.

Pamela 19:41

That's when we got married.

Scott 19:43

Well, if that's the case, then I was clearly otherwise involved with my foot. I do not remember him being on fire. I remember a lot of stuff about Jeff.

JT 19:55

But anyways.

Josh 19:57

Well, to your point though, to your point, so like there's obviously tools and and specialized equipment that a layman like me really has no business messing with. Back in my broker days when I had not a lot of money but plenty of time, I did loads of my own like general maintenance and some basic repairs. I've done radiators, starter motors, stuff like that. Stuff that I could easily find instructions and parts for and do myself because I was a broke ass, you know, 20-something year old and could figure it out. So I'm not completely ignorant under the hood of a vehicle, but at the same time, I don't feel at all qualified to handle like substantial tools I probably don't even know exist. I don't, I'm not in the worlds that you guys are in. And so like I don't I feel like there's probably opportunities for a general consumer to do some real damage to not only their vehicle, but to themselves. Like, do you see do you see it that way based on what you're seeing just in your own professional lives? Like, are there opportunities where if people had too much access, it would really be detrimental?

Scott 21:21

Uh a hundred percent. I already see that. Like, people can't be trusted. I mean, unfortunately, like to your point earlier about the software and and and people having access, like, okay, just ex for exactly what you just said, you are obviously cognizant enough to say I can do XYZ, but I know the rest of this is beyond my capabilities. Like, so you you are aware to go, I'm good. Are you familiar with the Dunning Kruger effect and what that actually means? Yes. That that essentially Is how a lot of this transpires. And with these these crappy repairs, is because with the inception of uh YouTube and Reddit and everything else where you can just look up uh a how-to or look up a video, which is great. Don't get me wrong, I have utilized so many I've fixed furnaces, water heaters, things that are way out of my realm of normal dealings. But because of my experience and what I do, I have enough knowledge to look at something and go, that's beyond my scope, or that's dangerous. I don't have the tools to handle that, I should stop. Where you get the people that vastly overestimate their abilities, and they look at something and go, that's not a big deal. And then they go to do repair and they end up taking a strut out and the spring flies out, or they do, you know, they take the wrong nut. They, you know, with EVs and stuff and batteries and things, and somebody touches the wrong cable or does the wrong thing because they saw it on TV or on YouTube, and at worst case, they kill their self, but they're probably at least gonna hurt themselves like terribly.

Pamela 23:11

I mean it or catch something on fire.

Scott 23:13

Yes, I mean it you you maybe maybe you contain the the concern to yourself, but you you make an improper repair on a vehicle or something, and you run the risk of hurting somebody else on the road or anything else.

Pamela 23:25

I mean, but that's it's always been a risk, especially with like engine.

Scott 23:29

Oh, I'm not saying they I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do that, but it it's difficult when not everyone is so self-aware to go, I probably shouldn't do this. Like try this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you can't just instill that into everyone.

JT 23:50

With gas engines and, you know, like heavy duty stuff, a lot of your your injury is gonna be things that are like fairly obvious. Like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna pull this engine out with some 550 paracord, and we're gonna see what happens. Strap it to a tree lamp. It's gonna fall. Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna fall. And that's so a lot of those like injury-based things with older cars are kind of obvious to most people. They should be.

Pamela 24:24

When you're getting they well I don't know, I still get nervous when I jump a battery. Like, I'm always.

JT 24:31

That's what I'm getting into. It's like I've been in the high voltage space basically since I came out of tech school. Like I did we piloted a program for with GM for transit hybrid buses. And it was eight, nine hundred volts, you know, and we were more than enough to kill you.

Scott 24:52

Way more. If you do something wrong, more than enough.

JT 24:56

But you know, now we're getting into you know, the Hummer, it's got what, eight hundred volt battery, four hundred, something like that?

Scott 25:04

It's yes, it's something way up because we have the Hummer. I mean, well, of course, there's a lot of manufacturers, but General Motors specifically, they've got the Hummer, they've got the Silverado, they've got the Equinox. So we have a half a dozen plus full EV vehicles. Like those.

Pamela 25:22

I didn't know the Silverado was I didn't know.

JT 25:24

So they've got that. You've got Ford with the F-150 Lightning, um, Porsche, their their electric one. They're that is an 800 volt system. They were one of the people the first people to put in an 800 volt system.

Pamela 25:37

Oh, Ford has Maverick too.

JT 25:39

Okay. Um, you know, Tesla, Rivian, all these people, and it really is like they they've tried to make it idiot-proof. Yeah. You know, as far as like uh global standard. I mean, HVL's pro if those that don't know HVL's high voltage interlock leave, if you unplug it, it cuts off the high voltage today. But there are ways around that. What if the car is damaged? Like I I struggle to think, like, if an EV today goes to a third party, like that's gonna be a struggle. And it's dang it's it's dangerous.

Scott 26:21

Well, to like to what did you say we were to like what you said about we were talking about the different brands, like just for example, take the Silverado that you said you did you know you didn't know we made a full EV. You have to have at minimum a 10,000 pound rated lift to raise an EV Silverado. You don't have to have that for a standard one, yeah. Like minimum, because those batteries are humongous and they weigh a ton. Both of my uh lifts at work are only rated for 9,000 pounds, so which is more than enough for the vast majority of anything, you know. I can raise a 3,500 up, no problem. I can do plenty of work, I can pull, I can do anything else. But just to do work on one of these vehicles, and the Hummers the same way, you have to have these for a while we had because General Motors had the bright drop, which is with like these huge, fully electric transport vans, and you had to have like we had to have like a 15,000 pound drive-on rack installed just to lift these up. Like, and that's something third parties may not know or may not, you know, because when you get the problem is when you get more specialized in something, you have to have more specialized equipment to do it safely. Not to say somebody can't lift it up, they can't do something, and they might not be able to do a repair, you know, and it'd be fine. There's a reason, which is slightly off topic, but there's a reason things like OSHA exist. Like that stuff was written in blood because somebody thought this'll be fine, or it's been fine for the past 10 times I did it, and then one of the rack arms breaks or something, and somebody's killed.

Pamela 28:08

Like, I mean, that's so then I that also leads to the the right to repair then. Like, are you even given any materials or anything even to tell you that these are the things that you need in order to do this?

JT 28:20

The internet. Yes. Yes. Well, even the the vehicle tag sticker and the door jam to gross vehicle weight. Yeah. Are is somebody gonna be cognizant enough of that to know that they need it to read it and know they need a 10,000 pound lift instead of an 8,000 pound?

Scott 28:43

A vast majority of information you need about your vehicle is in your owner's manual that nobody reads anymore.

JT 28:50

Ever reads.

Scott 28:51

I cannot tell you how many stories I've written when I'm completing a repair order, and I'm like, please reference page 347 in your owner's manual for how this system operates. It is my as a as a technician, that was my favorite thing to do. Yes, it's hilarious. It isn't like when we're we weren't talking about repairing, we were talking about just basic understanding of the vehicle. And if I can't trust you to have basic understanding, I find it difficult to trust you. That's what we're talking about, the Dunning Kruger. You have overestimated, you have already skipped past several steps in doing a repair just because you wanted to jump straight in. You're not even making the basic part of this safe for yourself. I still think people should have the capabilities to do that, but I can't force you to read. I can't force you to understand, and that's where I because I I have views on both sides of this, but I I don't know what the right answer is because I want people to be able to fix stuff, but I want you to be safe. Like, I and I can't make you be safe, I can't make you do things.

Josh 29:58

So yeah. Josh, I'm curious. So, like, I know early in your career you you know you already talked about some of the buses that you were involved with. I know that you had some heavy equipment background, some diesel background. You and I you and I even I remember you telling me stories about doing repairs on like garbage trucks and stuff like that. Um so like a a big component to the whole right to repair conversation stemmed from John Deere, the tractor manufacturer. And and they uh I've actually done some production work for John Deere and I've been in the room when executives were discussing this. Um and so I've I've had a front row seat literally to some of these conversations. Um and so the I I I I understand like as I've worked with John Deere over the years, I've seen some of their product demos and how the their equipment's gotten a lot more advanced, and and it's just it it's not just a diesel motor on on you know four big wheels anymore. You know, there these tractors, especially, that there's a lot going on in all of this stuff. Um and so I'm curious, like, even from a heavy equipment standpoint, like I hear the argument of some of the rural community around like, hey, we can't afford to sit around and wait on you know a John Deere certified technician to come out here and fix this that might take two weeks, but I need to be running this tractor in 48 hours, and I've got a guy that I think can fix it. Like, on more of the heavy equipment diesel side of things, like how how does that shift your perspective or does it shift your perspective around some of the right to repair conversation?

JT 31:40

No, I like so I sit again, I'm like Scott, I sit on both sides. Like everybody should be able to repair everything, let them have head as long as they read. And so, like, but when it comes to like the heavy duty stuff, um well, and probably have a certain level of confidence in what they're doing.

Pamela 32:00

I mean, I can read the book and still be like, yeah, probably shouldn't be doing this.

Scott 32:04

Well, yeah, but unfortunately, you're in the minority. People read stuff and go, that sounds terrible, I'll do it anyway.

JT 32:14

Yeah, I mean, I've done that.

Pamela 32:16

So I know.

JT 32:18

Like, if if I had like repairing or instructions for how to put this bookcase together, no, gone. Out of here.

Pamela 32:25

Oh, yeah.

JT 32:26

If I can't figure out how to put a bookcase together, I don't deserve to put the bookcase together. I deserve whatever's gonna happen. Right.

Pamela 32:37

This is why I build the majority of the furniture in this house. But I read the instructions and stuff. But at least I try it.

JT 32:46

My outlook on bookcases is because I know it's a bookcase and nothing's the worst that's gonna happen is I put a and I have to take it apart and turn the shelf around and put it back.

Pamela 33:02

I don't know, it could collapse on the kids, like you haven't got this through.

JT 33:08

It's not high stake. So but no, going back to like John Deere and stuff, like I mean, because that was the main thing that brought a lot of this to like media and everything, and yeah, I don't agree with it. I mean, you're when it comes to just something like the TPNs or whatever Scott was talking about, the unique part numbers, the UPNs or whatever. Like stuff like that shouldn't be a thing. Now, when it gets when you get into like making keys for cars, because it's not like you can just you know, back today, you had to take your key to the locksmith or the dealer and they could cut it, like you could go, what was it? Old Chevy trucks, you had a key for the door and a key for the ignition. Like that's a joke when you see somebody with a GM or Chevy and they got two keys on the other side.

Pamela 34:02

My dad's Pontiac had that. Yeah.

JT 34:03

My old car stuff. We moved to some that like had resistors in them, and then we moved on to like the electronic, and you got your push to start and stuff. Like do you really want the software out there to for somebody to just program a key and to your car? Like they break the window, they plug into the port, and they've now uh they've got a key that they picked up off Amazon, they've now programmed it to your car, they get in and drive off.

Pamela 34:34

Well, okay, so so we started kind of with the the mechanics and the the like physical aspects of right to repair, and now like we're kind of shifting more into that like software IP conversation of it's not even so much can you change these parts? Can you do this the physical mechanical part of it? Now it's okay, I'm having some issue with my screen or some thing is going off. I don't I don't know, I don't know what kind of problems you encounter, but like I don't even have the software I need. I I can't I literally can't do anything with this unless I guess I have an engineering degree or I download Linux or I don't know like your engineering. So can you guys kind of talk more about like that side of it? Like as far as go ahead.

Josh 35:30

No, I I was gonna say I I I actually have something to offer that specific part of this. Because I I can't really contribute much to the mechanical, like hands-on side, but the intellectual property side, like so my line of work, I I've done a ton of video and film production for clients of all shapes and sizes, and the something that I've done a lot of over the years, which is pretty boring but usually pays pretty well, is training content. Loads and loads of different companies need training content on video. Uh, and so when I start getting into that stuff, you know, I'm signing NDAs and things like that, because I'm about to get like front row access to all of this proprietary information that these manufacturers don't really want other people to have any access to. And then you start it's because it starts to bleed over into like copyright territory and and patent territory. And and so that's where this gets really gray for me personally, because on one hand, I I have a very clear idea of what I want ownership to be. Like, I can't stand how many things are subscriptions in the year 2026. Like, just let me buy the freaking software. Like, I'll pay you one time, you give me software, we're done. But like just yesterday, I was I was looking at an app for my phone that I was kind of kicking around buying, and then I saw it was 10 bucks a month, and I was like, screw that. Like, I don't want another subscription software. And so I have very clear personal ideas of what ownership is and what I want it to be. And at the same time, as both a business owner and as somebody who has worked in creative media, uh I did I do see the intellectual property and patent side of this, you know, and as vehicles have become more and more complex, I gotta imagine that that you know I mean it's not like like like just if Ford wanted to understand what Chevrolet was doing with their electric silverado, they could just go buy a Silverado and take it apart. So it's not like you could prevent these manufacturers from discovering something that you know, at least from a mechanical standpoint, but from a software standpoint, I do see how this is a gray area. Like I I wouldn't necessarily want a layman with no experience to be able to mess around in the software on really most vehicles now that are packed full of software. And so, like, how does that bleed over into y'all's worlds a little bit from an intellectual property and like patent copyright standpoint?

Scott 38:04

Well, like you said, nothing would stop Ford from buying a vehicle from another manufacturer and taking it apart.

JT 38:12

Because every manufacturer does that.

Scott 38:15

Yeah, right. They do that, they know, like they they're gonna do it, but your average individual isn't. And that's one of the that's one of the there's to me, there's only a few uh reasons to support uh not having right to repair. And I think the the corporations and stuff that don't want it, they they hide behind those couple reasons. They're valid, but they they stretch them way out. Safety, yes, intellectual property. I understand you take a company like Apple, Samsung, General Motors, Ford, whoever, these people have spent millions and billions of dollars to develop something, and it is theirs, you know, and I can understand that if I was in that same position and spent untold's amount of money on something, I wouldn't just want to have your average person have access to it when they could then replicate it, emulate it, make it cheap, you know, that that's disingenuous to my brand, which is part of a lot of these manufacturers and a lot of these companies and what they do. And I can I can get that, I can appreciate that. Um as far as them having access to things when it comes to the software, that's kind of a tricky area because we're not talking anymore about okay, you need to fix your stove, the circuit board on your stove, you need to do this. Everything in the world now is attached to the internet, everything has access. Chrysler has their UConnect system, General Motors has OnStar, every manufacturer has something, and these aren't just systems, they may have started that way where it was just simply a GPS and it was simply keeping you safe. With General Motors OnStar, you can download an app on your phone. I can start the car remotely from my phone, I can open the doors, I can roll the windows down, I can shut the vehicle off. I can there's already been videos out years ago where Chrysler's UConnect system was backdoored and taken over, and they were able to steer the vehicle, they were able to shut it off. These are extremely dangerous things. Like, because not that another manufacturer can't reverse engineer somebody's software or whatever, but when you give potentially bad actors the keys to the kingdom to let them program, rewrite something, do whatever else, that again, most people are probably gonna want to just fix my damn car. But you've got other people that are gonna use those capabilities for something entirely malevolent and could potentially cause because once you get once you figure out how to backdoor one system, it becomes increasingly easy to adopt that to everything else. And with the things that you can do with an automobile nowadays from your phone, like brand new General Motors vehicles, you don't even have to have a key fob anymore. We're given like literally hotel key cards, is what you can have a key card, and that's how you like which these things a lot of it is built with security in mind. It's built with you were talking about programming keys and stuff earlier. Some of our newer vehicles, for many, many moons, it was 10 to 12 minutes to program uh a key. Uh, our newer SUVs and stuff are over two hours to program. That's two hours your vehicle has to sit and be programmed. The computer can't be touched, and all of that was to detour somebody from stealing it or whatever else. It's not that they can't, but in general, most people might sit there for 10 minutes to steal your car. They're probably not gonna sit there for two and a half hours. Like they're gonna do something else because they're probably gonna get caught. But because of situations like this, it makes it incredibly difficult for the technician when they're just trying to do something very simple or benign, and it's the same way with any modules or software. I say it like I have access to things it is extreme, even in my professional life, it is extremely frustrating for some of these uh barricades that we have in place that I think are due to right to repair because a lot of my diagnosis has pretty much come down to put this part on. If that don't fix it, put this part on. If that don't fix it, it I almost feel like I'm guessing. I feel like I did more diagnosis on vehicles 10 years ago than I do now because they don't want that information about how to really check something, they don't want it out there now. Eventually that's gonna have to change, or else, you know, you're you know, especially with how advanced things are getting, but we don't even have access, and I don't know about other manufacturers. Again, I can only speak for myself, but we don't specifically have access to go in and look at software to go in and do things like that. That's an involved process where we have to get General Motors involved and they have to send us special codes, we have to do all this stuff, which I can understand. They don't want that stuff getting out, but it's stifling, it's a real stifling.

Pamela 43:50

Well, and as a reminder, too, like Scott works for the dealership, so it's kind of one of those like if you don't know how to do it, and then you know, a mom and pop can't do.

JT 44:00

And so then, you know, you go to the dealership and like go ahead and so that's an interesting point to write to repair, though, is with writer repair, manufacturers have to give all of the tooling and all of the information and software that they would give their technicians to a third party. Scott, have you seen any of your access or your um like BMW called them test plans, but like your diagnosis, like instructions and things, have you seen those get shrunk down or like access to things that you used to be able to do on the car like a year ago, like now you can't do it?

Scott 44:46

I have not seen I'm trying to think. I have because it's it's almost everything that we do that's a I would say 90% of what I do, you can go to a program like Identifix or All Data or whatever, which are subscription-based services. You're still and and it's out there.

Pamela 45:04

And a lot of times a lot of independence use. Independence use that. Oh yeah, oh absolutely.

Scott 45:09

Yeah, and and and if you have the money to pay for the subscription, if you use enough, it's it's a wealth of knowledge. It's fantastic, but you can't just access it typically as a normal person. And a lot of times the repairs that are outlined in one of those programs are word for word what comes out of our specific diagnosis charts. I mean, the schematics are exactly the same, the diagnosis is exactly the same, but they still lead you, like we talked about earlier with happen to programming, they can't get you. Those programs don't give you access to the back end where you can actually, and there are plenty of programs out there that you you you can buy uh, you know, you you have huge tool dealers like Matco and Snap on and Mac and stuff, and you can buy these $12,000 scan tools and they can do a tremendous amount of work. Your average person is not going to go out and buy a $12,000 scan tool. But if you do that, a lot of times those those come with, yeah, don't fix it, just buy a new one. A lot of times those come with uh at least a year of software, and you are able to go in. Like I know people who rebuild uh salvage titles, flood vehicles and stuff, and they are able to, across a wide range of manufacturers, program modules and do specific things, and they have to pay, I don't know what it is, a hundred, two hundred dollars for every time that they have to use this program. But there are systems out there that allow you to do this. You have to have the tool, you have to have the knowledge, you have to have so, in a lot of respects, those tools and programs are already available to the public, but there still comes uncertain situations and it's getting tighter, there are still very specific situations where you're hemmed up. You have to go to the manufacturer-specific facility, and they want it that way because if you control the repairs, you control the revenue. That's really what it boils down to. If I force you to come here, then I get to charge you whatever it is I want to charge you because you don't have a choice. Just like with John Deere, we talked about earlier. You know, they just lost a $99 million lawsuit or whatever about the right to repair. But interesting, in their paperwork, they did not admit fault for their business model. They agreed, their business model they didn't say anything about it. They thought it was fine. The $99 goes back, or $99 million goes back to like 2016 or 2018 to cover the farmers and agricultural people and things where they had issues. But and they have agreed for the next, I think, 10 years, decade to allow third-party repair facilities to have access to their programs, to their parks, to the stuff that they previously didn't have access to to allow people to continue to repair their their equipment. But even in that, that isn't a we were wrong. Let's let everybody have this. They still have a deadline for the next 10 years, and they still didn't admit that what they were saying was was the wrong was predatory or anything. It was the wrong way to deal with it. But like I said, I again I can understand it's their intellectual property. You don't want people repairing it because most people don't blame if there's a problem, you don't blame the part. You blame the brand. If I have a 500 million or a $500,000 comp combine and I'm out doing stuff in the field and it goes wrong, and even if I go to Joe Bob's repair facility and he fixes it, nobody necessarily, if that same part fails because that guy programmed it or fixed it or did whatever and it wasn't up to John Deere's specifications, they don't blame that guy. If it's the same part that failed that was originally on, they blame John Deere. Like they don't blame the person. And so a lot of that is brand management because they don't they want to make sure this that's that was the big thing for iPhone when they got sued. They want to make sure their stuff is fixed to their specifications, to the way they want it. That way, if there is a problem, then yes, that was our problem, that was our failed component. Whereas when you take it somebody else, that gives the manufacturer an out to go, well, you had access to our stuff, but you didn't do it right. You you didn't put the right part on, you didn't program it correctly. And that goes back to that. If you allow people to do programming, you allow people to potentially program in exploits or not program. And that that really is the big problem today. It's not the parts, it's the software.

Josh 49:59

Hey everybody, Josh here. I'm jumping in real quick because this conversation went really great, so great that we're actually gonna split it up into two different episodes. We didn't want to bombard you with too much right to repair content all at once, and I feel like this conversation deserves the time that we gave it. So we're gonna end this episode here, and we're gonna pick up part two when our next episode is scheduled to release. So we really hope you've enjoyed this conversation about right to repair. We believe this is something important. We believe that it applies to all of our lives, and it will only continue to apply more and more. So, stay tuned for part two.

Pamela 50:34

Well, that's it for premeditated opinions, for the thoughts were fully baked and only mildly regrettable. If you enjoyed today's episode, congrats on having truly excellent taste and podcasting opinions. Following us on YouTube and Instagram is a quick and easy way to support us. So if you liked literally anything about today's episode, please like and subscribe.

Josh 50:57

Also, send this to someone who needs to feel seen, dragged, or both. We'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling. And until then, please stay hydrated and behave yourself in the comments. But if you don't, at least make us laugh.