Chrissie 0:00

And so he says, do you guys mind if I sit here and I say, usually it's her. You know, and she was just like effervescent for some reason on Friday. And I was like, Oh, you know? Um, you were so nice, nobody you were so nice to say what you said, and you were very nice. Yeah, I was like, I was like, actually, no, a boy will we're having so much fun and a boy will totally change the vibe, you know? And he just sat down anyway.

Pamela 0:42

You're listening to premeditated opinions because yes, we thought about it, and then we said it anyway. I'm Pamela.

Josh 0:49

And I'm Josh, and we are two people who somehow share a brain and decided to weaponize our brains with microphones. Each week, we unpack anything, from politics and religion to carpool dread and everything in between.

Pamela 1:02

You know, it would really help us a lot if you followed us on Instagram and YouTube. Giving us a like and a follow is probably the best thing your thumbs will do today.

Josh 1:11

We are not experts. We are just way too confident in our own opinions. With all that being said, let's get started. Welcome back to Premeditated Opinions, where I'm being joined by a lot of really awesome people, and I'm excited to introduce you all. So, um, today we are thrilled to be joined by Chrissy and by Arielle, two people who I've known um for a good bit of years. Uh I don't know, probably I mean at least 10, right? I met you and I was still at Ariel when I was still at St. Andrew. I met you before that, though. Yeah. Um, right?

Chrissie 1:44

I know. I think I think I met you at St. Andrew, but I we knew of each other because we had kind of, you know?

Josh 1:50

Yeah, we were in the same circles. But um, and also we're having to share microphones today. It is what it is, love us through it. But we're uh we are thrilled to be together, and we're gonna basically in this episode, what we're gonna try and focus on a little bit is some of the the unique experiences of being single in 2026, and that's uh something that I can't necessarily speak to, and Pamela can't either, as far as I know. And so um so no, we we've just this episode really is the product of a lot of really funny conversations that I've been a part of with the two of you, and then uh the third woman whose name is also Krista, not my wife. Um, but we you've just done me the great service of letting me into some of the details of the experiences that you guys have, and I was like, oh my god, this has to be recorded. So here we are. Um so anyway, I want to give you all just a hot second to uh say hello and and like give us something about yourself that you think it's it's prudent for people to know. We'd just love to know what you do with your lives, whatever you feel like sharing, and then um whatever your current relationship status is, also whatever you feel like sharing. So why don't you kick us off, Chrissy Rivers?

Chrissie 3:00

Okay, um, so my name's Chrissy Rivers. Um I have uh I'm just gonna like come out with it, but I have been single. I I dated someone last summer, summer of 2025, for three or four months. Um but before that, I had been single and abstinent. Can I say that? Sure. For 13 years. Um my my I'm 47. Um, I don't know why I always want to quantify my age, but it feels valid, you know, in like the context of like long-term singleness. My son was young, I was picking terrible partners. He got really sick. Um at I think he was 12 when he started having these terrible symptoms with a disorder called dystonia. And he took all my attention. It took a couple years to get a diagnosis, and so I just decided, you know, I was picking terribly, these men were taking attention from my son, and so I then just decided to stop dating for a while while I was making sure justice got better. And then I the muscle atrophy, that's the best way I can think of to describe it, you know, is that it just became the way I was living. And so in the last year and a half, I've lost over a hundred pounds, which is really cool and comforting, and I feel really great in my body, you know. So last year I started dating again, and it is like it is a minefield. It's it I have so many things to say about singleness and dating and all that. But so that's that's me in a nutshell.

Josh 4:36

Yeah. All right, why don't you go next? Okay.

Ariel 4:39

So my name is Ariel Talitha, and I I'll qualify, I'll like say my age too. So I'm 43. And so it is, it's very interesting being single and dating in your 40s compared to other ages, you know. Um, especially when I talk to like people I work with who are in their like early 20s and they talk about dating. It's just very interesting. Um, I uh I guess some of the like my history, I've been married and divorced three times and I've been officially single um for nine years, I think was my last divorce, was nine years ago. Um, and I've dated quite a bit off and on. It took me like six years to start to get back into that. But then over the last few years, I've started dating a little bit more, like on and off over the last few years, and everything from online dating, um, dating my son's favorite YouTuber, just through direct messaging. I remember that. You and I were messaging about that. I know, I know, I know, and then most recently, like dating a 90s rock star, like it was just I don't know, it's just been a wild ride, and it's just it's really fascinating and super interesting, and just I don't know, it's it's just wild. Yeah, yeah.

Chrissie 5:55

It's like my favorite thing to talk about. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh 5:59

Well, you're in the right place. Yeah. Yeah. No, so uh as far as like you'll have somewhat different backgrounds as far as just your your path through sort of earlier relationships, but you know, you said you're 43, you married and divorced three times. That means your last marriage ended when you were 34, which means you got started young. Yeah like uh do you f what what what do you feel like what influence do you feel like that had over your circumstances? Like, was it uh helping you, hurting you?

Ariel 6:29

I mean what yeah, well, I think I grew up as the oldest of five kids in a pastor's home and in Baptist denomination. So there was a lot of like marriage is the ultimate goal. Um, you can't do anything on your own. Um, like for me it was like, oh, if you are going to as a woman, like you need to be married to buy a house, to buy a car, to like survive. Like that was just part of like that's just what you do. And so for me, like I got married the first time a week after I turned 20 to a youth pastor. Um, and it was like nothing like I thought it was nothing like church had promised me, you know. I mean, everything was very like, you know, if you wait till you get married to have sex, then your marriage will be perfect. So I waited till I was married to have sex, then it was not perfect. And and it led to a lot of stuff of like us both having affairs and like, I mean, just a lot of these things that you just don't plan for growing up as a like perfect like pastor's kid, you know? And so then after that, it was like what do you do? Oh, 100%, oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was a very um starting out that young. Um, I mean, I was a baby, you know. Like, I mean, that's I look back, I look at 20 year olds now, and I'm like, how in the world was I a youth pastor's wife and in charge of other people's kids? I can't, you know what I mean? Like, it's so crazy. And then to think like these are such big steps um to take when you're so young. And I wasn't, I wasn't ready.

Pamela 8:09

Well, and it's funny too, personally, like I feel like I was probably 40, still feeling like, am I am I technically an adult? Like, yeah, sometimes I'm still like, um, I need an adult, please. You know, like and then you've got these 20-year-olds, yeah, get married, having kids, and all of this, and it's less you look back now, and I don't know, maybe it's generational, maybe it's just the way of the world now, but it it's just it's insane to think about like even just my daughter getting married. Well, she's different, but anyway. She's she's like, she still thinks boys have cooties and she's 13.

Josh 8:46

So we're the worst. Yeah. So Chrissy, kind of what was your early path? Like, like when you when you were kind of getting into dating and relationships, kind of late teens, early 20s, mid-20s. Like, what what do you feel like was sort of your on-ramp into serious relationships? When did that happen? I love when I ask a question, the answer is just laughter.

Chrissie 9:10

Yeah. I didn't have that. I just I didn't have that at all. Um my upbringing was just almost non existent. I say tongue in cheek a lot, I was raised by wolves. But I just didn't have, I didn't, I didn't have uh, I didn't have any kind of structure. I um, you know, I've hung a lot on this. I'm sorry, I'm thinking as I'm as I'm like saying these things out loud, but um I've I'm a biracial woman, but I was raised in a white family, and I have a lot of hang-ups. I've had less now, but I've had a lot of hang-ups around um my race. And I think because I was raised by a white family, I found myself more attracted to white men. But white men weren't really attracted to me, you know? So I've spent a lot of my life, a lot of my life single. I don't think um my first real boyfriend, I can't remember who it was. I I went to rehab really young. And there was a boy that we did a lot of like smooching at the washers and dryers and treatment. And I thought of him as my first boyfriend, but I don't think that uh I don't think he thought of me as his first girlfriend, if that makes sense, you know? Um, and even uh on into like you know, early adulthood, I got pregnant with my son at 19. I was working in gentlemen's clubs and you know, as a young girl at 18, and that was just kind of I had been homeless, so then I was working in gentlemen's clubs because that was like just the obvious way of like there's this is an avenue for money, you know? Oh yeah, but in that line of work, like there's things that happen, you know. Um so I got pregnant working in that environment, is that if everybody can infer what I'm saying. Um and uh and so I was 19 and was a baby, and then there really weren't boyfriends until I guess I was like 26 when I met a man that I really like was kind of head over heels for, and I destroyed my life over that relationship. So that sounds so heavy, but you know, um relationships are heavy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was just like I'll do anything to keep this person because I'd never really had like a boyfriend before, and even just saying it made me feel like you know, someone can love me.

Pamela 11:54

Do you feel like you didn't have a great like role model or model of what a healthy relationship was? For sure. Okay, and I feel like a lot of us kind of came from that. Not all of us, but several of us, it's just like I feel like, particularly in my situation, it's like, did you really want to be together? You know, like you stayed together for the kids, but maybe you shouldn't have. You know? So I think a lot of us and I don't know, maybe is it uh us being 80s and 90s kids or whatever, like our 70s and 80s kids? Like, is it we grew up with family matters and all of those shows that were just like, oh, you know, you have to have the perfect, you know, uh nuclear family so that way everybody grows up with values, and but it's you know, how many households actually looked like that?

Josh 12:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like to I I don't want to get too hung up on the purity culture of it all, because that can be its whole own episode by itself, because that was a no you're buying that. That was a a massive part of my life, just like it was for you for you. And so, like we grew up in similar environments uh of like I was not a pastor's kid, but I might as well have been. I mean, my home functioned exactly like it would have if my dad had been a pastor, which he always wanted to be his whole life, but he's an engineer. And so dark. I know, yeah. But so I mean yeah, but he like I I did grow up in this very staunch, very high control religious environment. And so Krista and I got married when we were both 21. And the fact that we have lasted 19 years is really miraculous. Like to to get married without a fully formed prefrontal cortex, and in in coming out of just a type of upbringing that is so controlled and and rigid and terrible, and then to get into marriage and have some of the same realizations that you had of like, hey, we we saved ourselves and we we checked all the boxes and we did things right, and now we're in this, and what now? What do we do? Like there was no there was so much fear baked into that relationship early on that when we finally crossed over into marriage, we had absolutely no idea how to be in an actual vulnerable relationship with each other. And so, in some ways, this year plus of dating that we did, it's not that it was negated or not important, but it became like less important for sure, because I felt like we hadn't really explored intimacy in some ways that would have been very helpful to us going into a real marital situation. And then thankfully, by some absolute miracle, her and I have managed to evolve the same direction for the last 19 years. And the statistics on people who get married at the age that we did are terrible. Like, like we statistically, we should not have survived that. And we did, and I think some of that was our own stubbornness, and I think some of it was just being compatible in some ways that really helped, and just growing in the same way and and wanting a lot of the same things, and and even now today, like we're it's it's still evolving, it's still changing, we're still growing, we're still figuring out what our relationship really is over time. And we also we like to say that we're writing everything in pencil, like you know, we're we're kind of reserving the right to change and grow and be better and be different. Um, and there are some steadfast things that won't change with within all of that that we that have just been consistent for so long. But there's plenty that we're just like, nope, we we want space to be able to learn within the circumstances that we're in. And so I gotta believe that like if I were single today, and I'm so glad I'm not um but but if I were single today, like like I would certainly be asking completely different questions. I I would be approaching relationships in a completely different way than I did the last time I was dating. Um, and so you know that's that's where I'm I'm really interested in what y'all have to say because you know, you both have had pretty unique experiences just on your path to getting where you are and trying to find the kind of companionship that you want. And I'm wondering, like, what what was sort of the biggest culture shock for you when you were just like, okay, I want to do this, I want to try, I'm gonna put myself out there, I'm gonna go for it, I'm gonna put in real effort. Um, and or maybe you haven't even done that. I don't know. But it seems like you have from the outside looking in. But what what was what were some culture shocks kind of early on in the process?

Chrissie 16:39

Mega.

Ariel 16:40

Oh I'm just gonna say Yeah, well, that's something that that's something we've talked about quite a bit. That's something we've talked about quite a bit living in the Dallas Fort Worth area, is when I've done dating apps as like the means to trying to find that end, you know, is like it's an automatic. If it's conservative, it's like boop, boop, boop, like you're no, no, no, no, no. But you go through, you get to the end of hinge real quick. You know, like you do. And it's very hard. And so that's where I've found that the actual any any relationship dating wise that I've had in the last, what is it, like six years or so, or three, three, four years, um, have all been long distance. It's all been people who've lived in other states. Not necessarily because I was seeking that out, but that's where more of the like connection, like the organic connection kind of came in because it's really hard to find that here on a political standpoint. I mean, we had an issue, like an issue, not even an issue, but like what I'm about to say wasn't an issue. But we I had an interaction the other night when the three of us, me and Christy and Krista, were all at a bar and hanging out, and this guy came up and was talking to us. And pretty instantly we knew that he was conservative, like on the far right side of conservative. And I was like, Go, you're done. Bye, like, go away. That wasn't the only reason we told him to leave, but it was just like, but it's it's like, gosh, you can't even, it's so hard to even go out and like meet people organically.

Chrissie 18:20

Wait, are you talking about Vlad? Yeah. Oh, I didn't even, I didn't even recognize that he was probably conservative. I was just like, something about you grosses me out, and I want you to stop talking to me immediately.

Ariel 18:32

Immediately. Well, it was that.

Chrissie 18:34

That was what it is, but I don't like you, and no, you cannot fit here. No, no, no.

Pamela 18:40

Well, and and based on what I've heard and read, like, I think guys have picked up on the fact that like that's an automatic deal breaker for a lot, and so they're getting slick about how to like get around being that way. Some are just blatant, and you guys have more experience than I do. But from what I understand, it is very much a I'm going to try to be around the bush as much as I can before like kind of announcing that I'm this way.

Ariel 19:11

Because God forbid, you should actually like learn things and change the way you actually think and believe about things. Let's just get better at pretending.

Pamela 19:22

Uh-huh. Yeah. I'll be honest, that was one of my struggles about moving from one red state to another, much redder state. You know, because I'm from Kentucky. I mean, luckily we got Andy Bashir, uh, who's whatever, whatever you think about that. But um, like I I struggled for a long time after we moved here. Like, I don't think I left the house for a year. Like, I just was like terrified. And then you've got the elections and stuff going on, and I'm seeing roadside mega tents, and I'm just like, I'm just automatically assuming every single person does not agree with me, does not think the same way I do. All of that.

Ariel 20:04

I will say this too, though, because I have a sister who is four years younger than I am, and she is also single, and she's gorgeous, Bethany. If you've met her, oh my gosh, she's beautiful. You would meet her and see her and even know her personality and be like, how in the world are you single? Because it's like she has everything going for her. Incredible job, like just she's incredible, but and she actually dates conservative. And so, but she has just like the same, the same struggles with finding somebody decent to line up with. So I don't know that it's just political or even just age, because she's in her mid to late 30s. You know, she's a good, you know, almost you know, five to ten years younger than us, and she still has some of the same, like some of the same struggles with finding uh somebody decent to line up with, you know, or to date.

Pamela 21:02

I think that things are and again, you guys can correct me here. Um, I think it feels like things are getting stacked up harder and harder for singles these days. Um where it's like it people aren't going out as much. Well, because of the economy and not being able to go out and, you know, pay for gas to go get drinks with somebody that you know you don't know if things are gonna line up. Um it just it seems like it's it's harder and harder to get into spaces where people are who are looking for the same thing, same things that you are looking for. We have a friend, Madeline, who's struggling with this. Now, there's other things there.

Josh 21:41

But um She's doing a little of that to herself.

Pamela 21:45

I'm just saying I love you. Sorry, Madeline. We can cut that out. Um we probably will because she is part of our paid substack. But anyway. Yeah, but you know, like she she has certain things that she's looking at, and I'm not saying lower your standards, like that's not what I'm saying, but it's just like she does struggle in like where are the decent people, and she's starting to feel like I just don't think they're here. Like, you know, she's done the apps, she's doing the gym thing, she's trying to make her put herself out there. She's like to a point where she's starting to go to like networking events. She's just like, I don't know where else to find like a decent person, but at the same time, she is looking for somebody to marry um to help her with, you know, she's got young children and and she's she's younger, she's in her her early 30s. Um, and then that kind of got my wheels turning too around marriage and and companionship in general. You know, I feel like we grew up where marriage was the norm. And I think that marriage should be the exception. You know, you guys are an exception. You know, like luckily it worked out, but you went into it thinking this is the norm, this is what I'm supposed to do, uh, you know, not really knowing, and then it just luckily worked out. I feel like there are some people that do that are meant to be together, who are soulmates, who, and I just think sometimes it's just the exception. You know, it's it's the exception, it's not the norm, and it's kind of like what are we uh what are we going for here? Like what are we actually looking for? Is it marriage? Is it companionship? Is it what like what?

Josh 23:40

So Yeah, I wonder I wonder how much just relationships are are fundamentally changing, like what you're talking about. Like there's even when it comes to like divorce, uh my own perspectives around divorce are just wildly different than they used to be. Like I don't I don't chalk it up to some gigantic failure or some like betrayal of some code of ethics that we all made up on our own. It's it it just indicates that something was working and it wasn't working anymore, and the healthier result of this is going to be for us to move on and find something that that actually meets our needs.

Ariel 24:19

The argument for that could be that you it it keeps you on like a nice tidy path for people. You know what I mean? Like if this is the goal and this is what we're instilling, there's some really good guardrails. Like, I guess maybe for some people it could. I think for me, it probably kept me on that path, like in junior high, high school, early 20s, that kind of stuff, as far as like not doing anything like wild and crazy, according to like what the church would call wild and crazy. You know what I mean? But but there's also the other, I think it could be argued the other way, and this is probably more where I would argue now, is that is having those ideals that were supposed to be guardrails also made it make it impossible for like for maybe for some people to pursue what they were actually supposed to do. What they were actually because my whole thing when I got married for the my when I got married to my first husband, I I was actually when he and I met and were dating and um about to get engaged, I was actually working on getting a record deal. And he and I talked about it, and he said that he was not gonna wait around for me. And so if I was to pursue that, that we would have to break up. And I was like, well then, well then how am I gonna get married? How am I gonna have a house? What in the world? Like, but that was like the thought, and that was like a very genuine thought. When I married my second husband, we got married 30 days after my first divorce was final, but when we were dating, one of the big reasons that I said yes and married him is because my lease on my condo was about to be up, and I had $5,000 in credit card debt. And how was I, as an assistant manager of a jewelry store who actually made really good money? How was I gonna handle this crazy housing in debt situation? But it's like it's bizarre to say that now because it's like, girl, if those are that is not, but at the time it was because that was like the standard. The standard was this is the pinnacle of what life is to be for you. And if you don't have that, you can't do any of this. When I think if I didn't have that narrative of this like false narrative that I was like supposed to link up, like live up to, my it would have been wildly different, and probably honestly where I am now, but I probably would have got there a lot sooner, you know what I mean? And then you fold like shame on top of that.

Pamela 27:05

Like, so you've got people who are basically shaming you into this particular narrative, and so you're just kind of like, Well, this is what I gotta do. Like, and you just totally, especially as females, you just kind of take whatever your wants and desires and things that you want to do, and you just kind of tuck them down and forget, and just like, nope, this is what I gotta do because this is this is what everybody's telling me, this is what I've grown up seeing, like all of that. Like, nope, you know, I can't get too big, I can't be too much, I can't live into who I am because otherwise I'm gonna be homeless, or I'm gonna have to do this, or I'm gonna do that, or whatever.

Chrissie 27:43

I just have to say that I think one of the simplest but hardest to learn lessons I've learned as a middle-aged woman is that a man, I'm looking into the cameras, a man is not a retirement plan. A man is not a retirement plan. Okay, you're gonna fork. Like you do not, I don't know how many young women are gonna watch this, and you guys seem to probably know this way better than my generation, but you do not have to marry somebody in order to have financial security. And I think for so long that's been like, you know, a thing that like all my life, every every woman in my family I can think of like, you know, just everything I ever learned about relationships was like, what you'll meet someone who will take care of you, you know?

Pamela 28:37

Yeah you'll meet someone who will take care of you, and then you end up they end up expecting you to take care of them. Yes, yes, and that meant that like you're like, wait a minute, I can't do all of this and take care of children and take care of the house and take care of you and have a job and all the things.

Chrissie 28:52

Okay, and the extent, but the extent to which you have to be, like, you have to mold yourself into what you think a man is gonna want you to be and who how you're supposed to look and how you're supposed to behave, and you know, like I know for me, like, even you know, like factoring in being of a different race was like how in my mind there was something in the back of my head that's like, how do I mask this so that I can be whatever it is that you know what I mean? Someone is wanting. And it turns out all of that, like bending myself into a pretzel to be the idea of what someone wants to take care of me is everything that kept me alone. Everything that all of that behavior is everything that isolated me and made me, you know, unable to be in relationship. I am more comfortable in my own skin now today than I ever have been before. And and I find myself like in more interactions with more men in more cool circumstances. That's my that's my cup. There's a dog.

Josh 30:04

Um there's a dog, everybody.

Chrissie 30:07

Oh yeah, come on, come on. She's big, but she thinks she's little. Um, yeah, anyway, sorry, I just like went off on a whole thing I I think it will change people's lives to hear that.

Josh 30:20

Like, seriously. Because I I man, I cannot even remotely speak from either of y'all's experiences. I can barely speak for from my own experiences as dating as a grown-up because I wasn't a grown-up. The place I was at in life was not grown up, it just wasn't. And so, I mean, to your point, like I still I'm I turned 40 last year and I'm still like, is am I grown now? But it's it really is something I think about. And and should I be trusted with a mortgage? Right, yeah, y'all approve this loan? Have you met me? Like, like I remember I I've made this joke on the podcast before, but but I've I've said often, like, you know, Krista and I, we're we're two artistic types, and so you know, I'm I'm a little more numbers driven than she is, but even me, I lean more creative than numerical. And so most of our personal finances are kind of vibes. Like it's just it's just like it's like, yeah, we can we can probably do that, right? We make enough money. We don't we make enough money?

Pamela 31:20

But and even and even with kids, it's like, wait a minute, I don't I don't remember signing up to feed somebody three times a day. I can barely feed myself.

Chrissie 31:31

When you realize how much teenage boys eat, you really do like that.

Josh 31:35

Yeah, yeah, we're living in fear. But no, I I I I wonder what your experiences have been. So uh obviously, dating apps are the forefront of what a lot of people are using to meet people. And I would love to hear a little bit of your experiences on those apps. And and obviously, I mean, there's plenty that's broken. We know this. This is well documented. There's plenty that's broken. I'm wondering if you've had I I want to hear about the broken experiences. I'm wondering if you've had any positive ones mixed in with the broken ones.

Ariel 32:08

Oh, okay. Well, no, that's a great question. Okay, so I I've talked to Chrissy and Krista about this in our group chat before, but I have a I have a theory about men on dating apps. There are three things. There are three possible options or three possible categories that a man on a dating app can fit into. But if he is on a dating app, he is not all three of these things. He can be two of these things, but he cannot be all three. That is good looking, attractive, have his life together, and single. So, and the reason I say that is because more times, and this is just from our own experience, I may be completely wrong about this, but from our experience and all the pictures and conversations and drives home, like voice memos on drives home from a day where like, let me tell you what just happened. This is just the yeah, yeah, this is just the like little bit of like little bit of data, is because if if she sends me a picture of a hot guy from a dating app, I'm like, he's like on parole or something, like there's no way. Or you find out later he's not single, like, or like you find a guy who like really like has a great job and is really wanting a relationship and probably would treat you really well, and there's zero chemistry and there's zero attraction, and he's just not like not that he may not be for anybody, but there's not like that thing. I also feel like that any decent like man that is good looking, has his life together, and is single could literally just walk into any room and announce I'm single and looking for somebody to date. And there would be five lovely women who are single and ready to date. So it's very like the decent man to decent woman ratio is very off. I feel like. And again, this is all just my opinion. This is all just my opinion, and all just from having, you know, at least 10 plus single friends who all have incredible jobs, who all own houses, who all like kill it at like raising their kids and balancing friendships and like all of these things take care of their families, take care of their aging parents, like all of these things that any man would be like, I mean, needs to kiss the ground that they walk on, and they just get fumbled all the time by just these jokers that are just like, it's just not, I don't know. I just feel like the ratio is so off. And that's where like the dating app stuff, like I've sworn it off, I won't do it anymore. Um, I've given it chances over and over and over and over again. And I've just I've not done well because I feel like if there is any good guy on there, or if there is any guy that like, I say good guy, I don't want to say like anyone who every new everyone who's on a dating app is like a bad person. That's not what I mean. But if there is anybody that's like, it's gonna go where like we want it to go, they're swooped up so quick because I do just feel like there's a lot of really great women out there. Now, if you had a single guy on here talking about his experience on dating apps, it's probably completely different than what I just described. And he's probably gonna talk about all the crazy girls. And I'm sure that there are out there, I'm just saying I have at least 10 to 15 middle-aged, you know, 30s and 40s single women that I know that are just like God's gift to this planet that they just every single one of them like can't find like anyone to like meet that same like level with them.

Chrissie 36:18

Okay, so I I agree with most of what she just said, but we have had a disagreement about like I don't know, um I don't I don't know that I think it's as easy for men as sometimes we think it is, you know? Um, like even in the conversation around um, first of all, wait, I don't know which thought I want to have first, they're all converging at the same time. Um I'll just talk about Friday night, you know. This guy, this creepy guy is like come comes up and he says, Do you mind if I sit here? And like there's plenty of other places to sit, first of all. And he had been really creepily like staring at us, you know what I mean? Yeah, and it was just everything about him was like, Oh, he's gonna come over here, and when he does, like, oh, you know? And so he says, Do you guys mind if I sit here? And I say, Usually it's her. First of all, usually she's the one that's like, absolutely, you know, and but she was just like effervescent for some reason on Friday, and I was like, No, you know? Um you were so nice, though, but you were so nice to say what you said.

Ariel 37:31

You were very nice.

Chrissie 37:32

Yeah, I was like, I was like, actually, no, a boy will, we're having so much fun, and a boy will totally change the vibe, you know? And he just sat down anyway, and then I got really ragey about it. But I I'm I'm only mentioning that because um I was telling some guys about it at church today, and and one of our friends like made this staunch point about how hard it is for men to approach women in public. And I agree with that completely. Like, I can't imagine what it would be like if it if the rules were reversed, I don't know what it would be like to have to have to be the one to approach guys. And like, you know, especially the way women are, you know what I mean? Like the way, the way we were all kind of like, ha ha no, you know, and we're all striking, I'm just gonna say it.

Ariel 38:17

Like, we're all striking an intimidate, like, I think we all can give off like intimidating vibes.

Josh 38:22

Like all three of us, all three of you very personally, and yes, can confirm that is the vibes you would give off.

Chrissie 38:28

But that's almost why, too. It was a little like, you audacious little person, you know? Yeah, like what are you why, why, why? He was very insistent, and then he started to like gush over, like, you know, you I I'm ignoring him, right? Like these these two are kind of giggling at, you know, the ridiculousness of this man. But I am getting more and more angry, you know, the longer he sits there. And so I turned to watch the karaoke singers. Like, I'm just gonna focus my attention on it. It's fine, you know? It's a conversation in my head. I'm getting madder and madder, but my head is like, it's fine, it's fine, just chill out, just don't be cool, don't be a bee, you know? And I it's driving him insane that I'm not paying attention to him, you know? And so then he's gotta, he's gotta go, you know, you really are so beautiful. And that, believe it or not, that's when I lost it. It was like the manipulation of you, person, right now. Like I'm hollering at other big men across the bar, like, I hate this guy. Somebody, somebody come get him.

Ariel 39:31

You know what I mean?

Chrissie 39:33

It was outrageous. And I ended up leaving. I like got my purse and I went outside because I was like, I think I'm gonna go home. And luckily, she went and got a tattoo and everything.

Ariel 39:43

I'm gonna get a tattoo. Come with me. But you actually go in and get a tattoo. Yeah.

Chrissie 39:50

She totally did. My I think my whole point is like this guy was like, he was very, he he, there were a lot of things that I would check boxes off that like are undesirable to me. However, um, I want I like I really want to give men empathy and like just trying to be the ones to like to do that, to make the approach. What?

Ariel 40:16

No, no, I love what you're saying. Josh and I caught like locked eyes because it's like you're like, I really want to give men empathy, and I'm like, her steeping anger from two seats away. Like, but that's our different, but that's also our different experience. That's is our different experiences. Not that, like, I mean, we just have different experiences with men, and you've had terrible experiences too, but you've also had good ones, and I've had terrible experiences, but I've also had really good ones. Like, but it is, I'm like, that is like kind of a like touchy subject because it is hard whenever you have a a good guy in your life like you, or like when we're raising boys, like I'm raising a white man, but guess who has hurt me every single time? A white man. So, how do I raise someone who's gonna be different than what I've like experienced, you know? And how do I raise somebody who's gonna like be like hopefully change some of that stereotype?

Josh 41:12

And I I can't imagine I can't imagine entering in, and I I have zero plans to do this whatsoever, so I've I think I'm fine, but I can't imagine like chasing after any sort of of dating or relationship at this point, largely because of what you've talked about, because part of my experience, and and I bet I know who you talked to this morning who had that opinion. I'll leave his name out of it, but but I I actually I as somebody who has worked and continues to work to be the right kind of influential male figure, white, straight, cisgender male figure within a society where largely that's the archetype that makes up the villain. Um and to try and be somebody who operates in a space where it's like, no, it it can be different. I can be different. We we can collectively do something that is a lot healthier and more inclusive and better than what's been offered before. But I'm now up against hundreds and thousands of men who have set the bar in a way where no one is gonna trust that I would come at relationships from a healthier place, from a more genuine place. And so then I'm now fighting against all of this history that I'm not personally responsible for, but have to take accountability for because now I am I'm a representation of this demographic that has been that big source of hurt, and now I'm having to figure out how to try and I mean I hate the word convince, but in many ways that's what it is. I'm I'm trying to convince people that no, it doesn't have to be that way. There can be exceptions to the rule. Can I show you? Will you give me a chance to show you that exception? And I'm not in a place where I have to make those kinds of efforts really. Um, but at the same time, like I could see how a genuinely good, well-meeting, white, straight, cisgender male would really be, would really have his back against the wall.

Chrissie 43:14

Josh, what you are describing to me, all I can think is you're t as you're saying all of that, is that that is uh a lot of what it's like actually to be black. Like there's a lot of, I don't I don't know if you've ever you could you couldn't have noticed this you're not black, but I'm not but there is a thing that happens like in the black community where you don't hear you'll hear black people say, like, we're not a monolith. You know what I mean? We're not a monolith. But there is like like when Obama was elected, I like there was a collective puckering of the booties, you know? It was like, please don't fail. Please be good at this. You know what I mean? Please be good because we all we're we're all hanging on the line of what they. Think of all of us, you know what I mean? And I think just to bring it back to like singleness and dating, I think that that is also why statistically, I don't know if you guys knew this because you also, again, you're not black, but so you probably haven't read these stats, but black marriages between white men and black women have some of the in America, in America, I don't know about the rest of the world, but have some of the highest success rates. Second marriages. Later in life, black women who have been married and divorced, white men who've been married and divorced, when they, you know, find each other, they have a really high success rate. And my theory, I don't know that anybody knows why this is, but my theory is sort of what you're talking about. A little bit of feeling like a marginalization, a heaviness, you know. Not that I think I know that white men aren't marginalized, but I think a lot of them feel like they are. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of I'm you tell me, but I'm listening to you thinking, I think there's a lot of pressure sometimes to like not be a douche, you know what I mean? And carry like this weight of being the man that you you want to be. Yeah. I I don't know, but I think it's a fascinating statistic.

Josh 45:13

Well, that that is interesting. I I I so carrying the weight and trying to not be a douche, that there's there's a uh a tension around okay. I'm I'm kind of projecting myself into what you're saying because I can only speak for me, but I I think that this probably holds up. There's there's this idea that okay, well, the the most attractive men are confident men. Okay, well, what does that confidence need to look like then to not be gross? Like, because if it's not if it's not walking up to a woman in a bar and trying to engage with with her and and trying to be complimentary, now homeboy who approached you was doing it wrong, but like the but at the same time, like I'm I'm trying to put myself in that position of like if I'm having to approach a woman in a public setting who's obviously there with her friends, which that adds a lot of complication to it, um there's there's a confidence that I would want to walk into that interaction with without being off-putting. And that's a line that I think moves almost minute by minute. Like, how do you approach these things and and be the right kind of person, the kind of guy you're you want to be and be perceived as, and generate enough interest to get some reciprocation and the conversation and to actually get things moving. And so the I I would never go as far as to say that white men are marginalized. I don't believe that to be true in the slightest. But I do think that there is sort of a a pre-accepted idea of who you are all by itself before you even open your mouth. And that's something that I would just have no idea. I I would just I I don't even know how I'd approach that to be honest with you. Like if I were in that situation.

Pamela 46:55

So I'm not in your situation, but I'm just sitting here, wheels are turning, and I'm thinking, like, there's confidence and there's arrogance, you know, and and that dude was clearly arrogant, narcissistic, couldn't read the room. And I think there's a difference between like reading the room, you know, it's one thing to like start up a conversation with somebody, like, say you both walk up to the bar, you know, the guy, you know, allows you an opportunity to order, maybe you chit-chat, and you quickly figure out like she wants to continue talking to me or not. Like she will either walk away with her drink and go back to her friends, like, but I'm not gonna chase her, you know, like and and also being able to like hold a conversation, you know, like being able to act, you know, be interested and you know, but not be creepy. Like, there's gotta be guys have gotta know this at some point, or they gotta figure it out at some point of like read the room. And you know, again, arrogance is not confidence, like confident to me is like you can hold a conversation, you seem interested in in what I'm ordering, or you know, you you're funny, or you crack a joke, or but there's not like you're not forcing it, you know, and then because I'm just thinking even times though, yeah, I am not single, but I have been on business trips and ended up at the bar and been flirted with, and there are times like I will have conversations with guys, doesn't mean it's leading to anything, but like I'm just thinking through like when that has happened, when have I been like and when have I like like been like this or like just engaged in the conversation, and a lot of times it's it's that I don't feel pressure when guys are able to create that like read that room and create that environment where it's like okay, you're not here, like maybe we're you know, both traveling or whatever, we're sitting at the bar, we're just chit-chatting, um, you know, we're cracking jokes with the bartender, you know, like just stuff like that. Like, why is that so difficult? Like, is it just guys don't know how to have conversations? Like, to me, like that's the ultimate icebreaker is just giving space and then figuring out, okay, is this gonna work or not? No, okay, then I don't know.

Josh 49:21

Well, because like to me, like when you were describing what happened on Friday, there was such a clear move in my head that he could have that he could have gone with. The it's not even a quote unquote move, it's just a a choice that he could have rolled with that would have been both flattering and been what the group wanted. And that is, oh hey, sorry, my timing's rough. I'll tell you what, uh, next round for the three of you on me, uh, I'm gonna have him put it on my tab. And uh, if you guys change your mind, I'm gonna hang out over here. You know, and and like that's that's that's a million times better than than him just trying to force himself into the situation.

Pamela 49:57

I'm hearing a new podcast. We're gonna teach men how to date. Oh, okay.

Chrissie 50:03

Oh my god. I have so many things to say about Matt, and I'm just like, I I have I have more to say after you say this thing, but oh my god. Like, okay, like I I don't hate this idea.

Pamela 50:18

Because I'm sitting here thinking, like, okay, there's gonna be a way to do this. I mean, I'm at right now, I'm thinking another LLC also. Um we're always coming up with business ideas. Okay, so what I'm thinking is like an exc okay, and this is gonna sound douchey at first, just hang in there with me. It's like a an exclusive club where you apply or whatever, I don't know. There's some there's some vetting thing where it's like, okay, we gotta make sure that you're not married, that you are actually looking for someone, that you know how to have, that you have conversation skills, that you know, you are mid to well attractive, I don't know, somewhere, like somewhere you pass some sort of test. Maybe it's a panel. Um, I don't know, but like, like and being able to actually create a space of like, hey, here's a great pool of people, like, and then, you know, I don't know, and maybe this already exists, but I'm like, I'm trying to think of a way to basically create an app in real life, you know?

Josh 51:19

I'm okay, so I'm into that whole idea, by the way. And yeah, yeah.

Pamela 51:23

Okay, but listen, listen, listen, I'm also not single, I don't know your experiences, I don't know what works and what doesn't. I'm just sitting here like, I'm sure we're facilitators. I'm also a problem solver, so I'm gonna try and come up with solutions.

Josh 51:35

Yeah, yeah. And you're a project manager for a living, so you're always just like, we could do it like this, and then we're here. Um, but the the six but I'm totally into that idea, and and uh I'm gonna circle us back to the dating app thing here in a second, but but like I've had the thought before of okay, this maybe is a a okay, I'll say it this way. I've had the thought before that I I feel like I have a little bit of something to offer after 19 years of marriage and you know, kind of having the life evolution that I've had over the last 20 years or so. And I don't think it's an accident that uh when friends of mine and even siblings of mine, my youngest brother's about to get married, he gets married next month. Um, like I've had so many conversations with engaged or newlywed men who are just like what do I do? And and these are and these are people who are intelligent, who are thoughtful, who are well spoken. Uh, a lot of them grew up in high control religious environments. All of the focus is around the what happens before you put a ring on it. And then you put a ring on it and you get you get married and all that. And and and one of the things I've said about, especially the conservative evangelical church for a long time is the it the church did a great job when I was young of making everything about sex and then making me feel bad for it. And so when I really started to unpack a lot of that, I I've I realized that we had put all of our focus on one or two areas that actually were not remotely the most important areas, and that we had left everything else just for us to figure out on our own. So say all this to say, I'm on board with a separate podcast. I'm leaving this in the episode as a teaser. Maybe it will be premium content. Maybe it will be premium content. But but like I I love that idea. But I want to circle back. I know we don't have a lot of time left. Um I I so there was something that came up, um, and I know we could talk so long about all of this, but um, there was something that came up that Chrissy sent to us on Instagram, which was um there are these AI models. It was one of the CEOs of one of the dating apps, wasn't it? Bumble, the CEO of Bumble was talking about how the future of online dating could look like an AI bot dating another AI bot and those AI bots deciding if their human counterparts were good for each other. So essentially, you as a human being have an AI counterpart that then dates another AI counterpart ver digitally and decides whether or not you're compatible. I have strong feelings about this and a lot of AI in general, but I'm curious: is that appealing? Is that an appealing alternative?

Ariel 54:17

You want me to go first? Okay. So you sent that to us, and as somebody who I also feel like I have a complicated relationship with AI because my nine to five job is in um animation design, that sort of thing. And so we, you know, we're always learning, and it's one of those things it's like if you don't grow, like what do you, you know, do you become obsolete? So there's a lot of like just back and forth and like talk about AI and that sort of thing. I'm also a person who does use Chat GPT quite a bit for different things. Um, and is a lot of it's like just for editing. Like, I'll come up with something first, and then I'm like, okay, I'm not the best editor, so I just need help tightening some stuff up. So um, but over the last couple years, I've usai, I mean, I'd use Chat GPT a lot for even like talking through, like, I want to do something different. So, how do I like this is how I want to respond to this text message. What would be a different way to respond if I want to be? So, anyway, I asked when you sent that, as somebody who has shared a lot of different facets of my life on Chat GPT on AI, there's a there's a pretty good bank of information about me that I feel is pretty accurate because I've been pretty, you know, probably more honest than I am with people a lot of times. It's probably not a good idea, but but so I asked it, I was like, give me a summary. If you were gonna date for me, what would you do? And it gave me this whole like summary on like me and like what I like am, like what are my strong points? What are the points of like this is something that RL does struggle with? And then it had like a little summary at the end and stuff. And I was like, I read through it, I was like, fan so fantastic. I've done obviously a lovely job at relationships so far. Not and so it would be great. So for me, I looked at it as like, oh my gosh, if there's somebody else who has been as vulnerable and has this accurate of a read on them, and there were like these two things that get together and be like, oh yeah, this could actually, or I could see somebody's info like that, that would be great because it would save so much time. So I looked at it as more of like, this is a really efficient way to do this. And then you and I talked, and you were like, Can I just say, I'm gonna say what you said? Because I think it was something like you're like, I just don't think AI can ever explain like the way like somebody's skin feels or the way I fall in love with somebody's smell. And I'm like, but it's true, but it's valid, right? Yeah, it is valid, yeah.

Chrissie 56:53

Yeah, yeah. I just can't like how is a how would AI quantify all the things that are unquantifiable about attraction, you know? And like the last boyfriend that I had, we were so different. And I have no idea why we had such a great physical connection. He was an idiot and kind of a drunk, you know? And he would ask, he was very white, but he would order things like magadita, one more, unamaks, magadita, for the more. And it was super embarrassing. But you know what I mean? And he wasn't Latino on the. If you put it on paper, it's like, oh my gosh, this guy. But I was just like, oh, I have stars in my eyes. It made absolutely no sense. It didn't work, but I don't think I would have ever had if AI was pairing me up with somebody, it ain't gonna be him. And I never would have had that experience, and I cherish that experience. You know what I mean?

Pamela 57:51

So I got a lot of thoughts now that you guys are talking about it, because like I have I work with AI all the time, like big part of my my my career. Um, I've got to be on top of what's going on, and to me, AI is a tool, period. It is not a replacement, it is a tool. So I feel uh, and there's a couple of caveats. I mean, you do have to be careful about how much personal information you're giving to your GPT and all of that. Um I agree, like it's it's an art and a science, you know. I do think that maybe you can I I think if I was gonna use AI to date, I think it would be more for helping me understand myself versus me trying to find someone else. Um, because again, like there are all kinds of guys that look great on paper. Um you know, I think if the GPT could say, yeah, this is nice, but based on his recent like chats, like he's a douche. Or you know, like if only there were surveillance involved is what I'm saying. You know, it's just like like some of the stuff he's used to write, like he can't write a sentence in his sleep. So, you know, like I just there's just I think there are maybe some ways that you can use it. I don't think using it as like a like an application like screener for guys is really because then you take so many good people out of the pool. Like okay, think of it like this two things, two things actually came to mind. One, think about how many times you start a chat and how long it takes you to finally get the results that you want. You know, it can take you a while of like adjusting, adjusting, adjusting, adjusting. And even then, like sometimes you finally get that email and you copy and paste it, and you're still making changes to it. So there's that. Let's say you used it for um shopping for a house. You know, you're gonna put all the things in there that you want, but then you're gonna sift out all the things that could still work, but may not necessarily check all those boxes. And you could miss out on a really great guy because you said that you wanted a pool.

Josh 1:00:11

Like yeah.

Chrissie 1:00:14

Okay, you guys know do y'all do y'all know the uh what's his name? Ryan Sirhant on Netflix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The like he's like a realtor in New York. Yeah, he did, he uh posted a TikTok one day about a deal that he was doing. He does all these like, you know, million-dollar deals, millions and millions and millions of dollars in real estate. And he had a penthouse or something that was worth millions that they were closing on. But the buyer and the seller both were using AI to get the best deal. And AI, because AI is so conditioned to tell you what you want to hear, told, you know, told the buyer it's priced wrong. You know what I mean? Talk them down, talk them down, talk them down. Told the seller, talk them up, talk them up, talk them up. Deal fell apart because no one could come together on what the right price would be because AI was navigating it all. And just thinking about that in the world of dating, you know what I mean? Like, I would have loved to have known that last summer's guy was, you know, an alcoholic who was gonna break my heart. But but at the same time, I I I really I really do cherish that experience.

Pamela 1:01:30

I can't imagine. You know what I mean? It does take away from the human experience. Like, I know I trust me, I'm not trying to put myself in your shoes, but there are times when I think it is important that you date certain people so that way you it helps you fine-tune the person that you are looking for and the things that you're willing to compromise on and not compromise on. And AI is just one, it's not there, and I just don't think it should be used for that. Yeah.

Josh 1:01:55

And like it's I I totally see how you, Ariel, have like poured yourself more into chat and have have sort of practiced some vulnerability with it and things like that. And lovingly, I think it's adorable that you think a man has the same capabilities. Like, like, I don't, I am not sure that we're up to that task. Like, like, I and and I I'm I think I'm a decently self-aware human, and even I would be I think for me, part of what would make me reserved in those interactions with AI is the fact that I don't really want a digital model of myself on the internet entirely. Like, I I I'm I try and lean away from that. Um, but I also hear what you're saying. I I hear the logic in, you know, maybe since I have poured myself into this, and if he has done the same, then maybe we check for that compatibility before we spend a bunch of time and money and effort doing something that doesn't go anywhere. I totally see that logic. I I'm not sure that men are up to the task of an of of communicating well with a tool like that in a way that would actually be helpful down the road. But I could be wrong.

Pamela 1:03:03

But I so it takes a lot that takes a lot of self-awareness, and not a lot of guys are willing to even admit to themselves their flaws and the things that they struggle with. Uh so I again use a use AI to help you be a better like interview candidate, but not necessarily like I I think when you I think things start to get messy when when you're involving feelings and things like that.

Josh 1:03:30

Well, I know that we have a hard stop today. I want to be respectful of that time. Um, but please come back. Like let's let's do this again. Um, and you know, we'll carve out some time where we can really like deep dive a couple more things. I've very much enjoyed this and have learned things in sitting here. Um and one of the biggest things is I'm so glad I'm not single. But but also um uh to any decent single men who are non-MAGA and uh believe that believe in women's rights, especially around healthcare and things like that. Here's two fantastic single women. Um however, the application process to getting their contact info goes through Pamela and I. So if you're interested in meeting either one of these two, we would love to introduce you, but you will be vetted. So um just know that up front. Uh but I I am going to stop us, not because I want to, because I know that we have a hard stop today. I want to respect that. Um, but we will do this again. Um please, please, please uh hit the subscribe button on YouTube. That's so helpful to us. Uh, we're also over on Substack, that's the best possible place to engage with our content. Um, you can also find us on Instagram, on Facebook, just kind of keep up with what we're doing. Um, but again, Substack's the place to be. We would love to have you over there. Thank you so much for letting all four of us in your ear holes. We are so very grateful. This has been a lot of fun. We are going to do it again. Um, and for now, uh, we'll see you in a couple of weeks.

Pamela 1:04:58

Well, that's it for premeditated opinions, where the thoughts were fully baked and only mildly regrettable. If you enjoyed today's episode, congrats on having truly excellent taste in podcasts and opinions. Following us on YouTube and Instagram is a quick and easy way to support us. So if you liked literally anything about today's episode, please like and subscribe.

Josh 1:05:21

Also, send this to someone who needs to feel seen, dragged, or both. We'll be back next week with more unsolicited insight and emotionally responsible spiraling. And until then, please stay hydrated and behave yourself in the comments. But if you don't, at least make us laugh.